20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance (On the Road with Trust-Based Observations)

Craig Randall: Good morning and welcome
to 20 minutes of Teaching Brilliance on

the Road with trust-based observations.

Today is episode zero of the
podcast, and what we thought we'd

do is introduce people really to
trust-based observations and then talk.

Kind of what the podcast is
gonna be about moving forward.

So to do that today, I'd have two
guests, Mike Caldwell and Glen

Woodburn, who are trained, TBO
Trust-based observation school leaders.

So I thought we could start by
having them introduce themselves.

Mike, you wanna go first?

Maybe we have Glen first.

He was the first one that was trained.

Mike Gladwell: Yeah.

I better go with Glen.

Craig Randall: Yeah,
we better go with Glen.

Glen Woodburn: Oh, okay.

Well, my name's Glen Woodburn.

Welcome to everybody.

I'm coming to you from Southwestern
Ontario, where it's a little brisk

this morning and a nice, gentle snow.

Glittering down.

So, it was my pleasure to connect
with Craig back in 2021 when I

was working in Beijing, China.

So I'll give you a little bit
of history of me and then a

little history with my TBO.

So I was for the last
four years, I was the.

Middle high principal at Canadian
International School of Beijing.

This was a school that used the
New Brunswick curriculum, which

was new to me because I had
been using Ontario curriculum.

And it was an ib,
M-Y-P-P-Y-P and DP school.

So lots of learning and
lots of experiences.

And when I got there one of the first
things that was thrust upon me was,

a process to evaluate the teachers.

It was based on the Danielson model.

And I pushed back right away.

I'm like, oh my goodness, you want
me to evaluate how many teachers on

how many look fors in checklists?

And I struggled a little bit with that.

Having come from Ontario I wasn't
as familiar with the Danielson,

but there was an Ontario framework
for evaluating teachers that as

an administrator, and I've been an
administrator for about 12 years now.

As an administrator I'd always struggled
with because, you know, I remember one

school where I had a teacher and they
pulled out the lesson and they taught the

lesson and then I went back to their file
and I pulled out an old observation form

and I realized that the lesson that I had
just observed was the exact same lesson

that they had taught five years previous.

So,

Craig Randall: the literal proverbial
dog and pony show that they pull out

the dog and pony show year after year.

Yeah.

Glen Woodburn: So, as an administrator
I had struggled with the evaluation

process knowing that it hadn't
improved teaching and learning.

I know for this in particular teacher,
you know, he was a great teacher,

but, you know, there was no growth.

There was no risk taking, there
was no progress in their teaching.

Even as a teacher you know, I had
spent 15, 16 years in the classroom

teaching everything from music to
spec ed to alternative education.

I knew as a teacher that I always
valued having my administrators come

in, but it was so rare that they were
able to come in and often, you know,

if we were doing something cool in
the class, even inviting them into the

class, sometimes it didn't always work.

So, when I came across a
LinkedIn post in 2021 by Craig

it really spoke to me both as a.

Teacher, but also as a leader
that it was, you know, perhaps

a different way to do things.

And I love doing things differently.

I love challenging status quo, and
I love seeing what we could do.

So Craig and I connected.

I requested the form as people often do.

And I was like, okay, this
form is a little overwhelming.

So Craig and I jumped on some Zoom calls.

We talked he talked about
the benefits of training.

And thanks to the support of our
superintendent and our board of directors,

we were able to be the first school
trained internationally through TBO.

And it was a great experience.

That was April, 2021.

Craig zoomed in from where
he was in North America and.

Spent late nights working with us and.

It was a, it was an experience and
what we had was we had 12 teachers

in our middle high and 12 teachers
on our elementary school that

volunteered to be part of a pilot.

So, you know, 12 teachers rep represents
about, you know, 25% of our staff.

So, we went through a pilot for
we did the training with Craig.

You know, that's the complete mind shift
that I'm sure we'll get into here, but it

was that mind shift that we had to get to.

Moving away from evaluation and
getting into really coaching

and supporting teachers.

So, it was a great experience.

We then ran that program for
just over two and a half years.

The school's continuing to run it and
it's been a great experience since coming

back to Canada in the summer of 2023.

I've had the pleasure of
connecting with Craig and.

And, you know, learning a little bit
more about how we support administrators

in developing their expertise in TBO.

So it's been my pleasure and that's
where I met Mike the first time was

when I spent just you know, five or
six days training teachers or training

administrators in Boise, Idaho.

So with that, I'll sort of kick it
over to Mike and say hi to Mike.

Mike, it's good to see you.

Mike Gladwell: Glen, thank you.

Great introduction.

I'll do my best to wing it
and follow suit after that.

Great intro.

Mike Caldwell from Boise, Idaho,
as Glen said spent the last nine

years as a high school principal
at Bishop Kelly High School, or

Idaho's only Catholic high school.

And maybe similar in some
ways to Glen's journey.

When I started as an administrator
my first introduction to evaluating

teachers was with the Danielson model.

And as a principal, when I had
the opportunity to do something

different, I quickly did so.

However when I made a shift from
Danielson, I didn't really adopt.

And another model, I, we kind
of just built our own and.

And just tried to figure it out for many
years until our, my last year at Bishop

Kelly I was always searching for something
better to observe teachers, something

more impactful than what we were doing,
and ran across Craig's book and ran.

Others that have had experience
and I heard really positive

results and reviews from other
administrators that I had talked to.

And I think it was sometime summer of
2022, I reached out to Craig for kind

of initial conversation and, that kind
of led into another conversation and

then kind of we took the risk and hired
Craig to come out and train myself and

our two vice principals in the early
fall of 2022, if I have that right.

So just not too long ago.

And August of 2022 is like our second,
our first or second week of school.

So the timing at the time I felt
was not great 'cause we had so

much going on with starting school.

And in hindsight it was absolutely
the best timing because we

got to use it all year long.

And the training was intense and, I
always kind of put it akin to, you

know, I was never in the military but
kind of a bootcamp for administration.

And Craig did a phenomenal
job training us.

Over the five days going through the cycle
of training where we observed together

and talked about our observation, and then
did a reflective conversation and talked

about a reflective conversation and did
this kind of four part cycle throughout

the week, and I think we got somewhere 12
to 15 different observations and during

that week, by the end of the week felt.

Super confident in what we were
doing and it just took off.

And myself and our two
vice principals just.

Loved doing it.

It was like a whole new, refreshed
kind of feeling as an administrator

where you just felt like you had these
new tools that you would, you just

wanted to go and use, and had these
new connections with teachers and a new

way to look at their teaching craft and
build trust with them as the name you.

And just loved it.

I think we did, between myself and our two
VPs, probably close to 200 observations

just in the fall semester alone.

And that was probably more than we
did in the previous five years in

the way that we were doing it before.

So, and it was just super, super powerful.

And then, you know, we're lucky
enough to get the other principals

around the state of Idaho that are
also working in Catholic schools.

Most of them trained this past fall, as
Glen mentioned, coming back to Idaho and

doing some additional training with our,
with other Catholic schools in Idaho.

So it's cool to see it continue
to grow, not just in our state,

but elsewhere, because I think
it's a super powerful model.

So.

Anyway, that's my introduction.

I think I've been in education about
25 or so years, and I could honestly

say that the trust-based observation
training and method is the single

best experience I've had in, in, as an
educator for growth, for personal growth

that I've experienced in those years.

.

Craig Randall: Mike.

And thanks Glen.

I appreciate it from both of you.

So I guess what we ought to
do now is tell everybody what

trust-based observations is exactly.

So they have a better sense of
just what we're talking about and.

Really I think it's a Transformative
new way of doing teacher observations.

And maybe even before that, maybe
we should talk about what the

research says on observations.

I'd like, because is what
we're doing now working is the

research that tells us that.

And there is, so there's six pieces
of research that I'd like to share.

And so the first one relates to
is teaching is our observations,

the way we're doing them now,
improving teaching and learning.

Luckily, there have been two studies
that have come out in the last five years

that give us some information on that.

The first is the Gates Foundation study
on the measures of effective teaching,

and that was a seven year, $575 million
study designed to improve the quality of

teaching student learning outcomes, and
graduation rates through the development

of a more robust teacher evaluation model.

In six of the seven districts where
they did this, they literally did

Danielson with the thought being,
if we do it true to the way that

it was designed to be done, we'll
achieve the results that we want.

So the Rand Corporation usually comes
in and evaluates studies, research

studies, and then creates final reports.

And in November, 2000.

18, the final report came out and it
said no sustained improvement, which

is probably another big surprise to
people, but research now tells us.

And then in November of 2021,
I was reading Education Week,

and while I was reading it,
there was an article on teacher

evaluation, which drew my interest.

And it was actually referencing a
nine year meta study by the Annenberg

Institute for Education Reform.

And it was looking at all state
mandated teacher valuation reform

efforts from in US from 2009
through 2018 and nine year period.

And the results of that
study were no improvement.

So we know now that.

They're not working or research
is telling, it's not working.

The next question becomes, are
there clues that tell us maybe why?

And history is loaded with clues.

Actually, the first model of
observation that we think about is

the clinical model of observation.

That's the first real modern model.

It's the pre-observation conference,
observation, post-observation

conference model, and in that model.

They they said it's really important
to remember this person that's being

observed is in a very vulnerable position,
so it's important that we build a

trusting relationship with them because
it is such a tough position to be in.

And they said one of the great
ways to do that is by really

highly focusing on strengths.

To our point, what they also said is
we have to separate the observations

we're doing from growth and supporting
growth from the observations

we're doing from evaluations.

That never really took off as part
of the model, but that's what they

recommended to separating that.

And Charlotte Danielson herself in
her framework book where it became an

evaluation in 2000, actually said that.

Observing for growth and observing
for evaluation are largely

incompatible, but she suggested
merging them anyway and suggested

that it could be done and strong.

In his 2003 teacher Handbook on Evaluation
said that most people consider them to

be mutually exclusive, observing for
growth and observing for evaluation, but

he said, because of political pressure,
we ought to find a way to merge them.

Anyway, that was 2003.

The year after.

No child left behind came out.

So that kind of makes sense.

So that's what the warnings are.

What does the research say?

In 1983, a report came out called by the
Reagan administration called A Nation

at Risk, and it talked about the state
of education being in a very poor state.

It was.

Kind of cherry picked information
that really wasn't accurate.

But taking that part aside, one thing
that they did in smartly was the next year

they commissioned a sub department of the
Department of Education to study teacher

evaluation practices in the US to see if
there's good ones out there that we could

use to improve teaching and learning.

So they go through all these studies.

Case studies all over the country,
and as they're doing it, they

start to see a pattern emerge.

And so they pose a question, can one
observation tool serve two purposes?

Can it both support growth and
evaluate for retention purposes?

So they go through all these
case studies, final results?

No.

A single tool can only serve one purpose.

Well, so now we have a sense that
maybe the reason observations

aren't working is we're having
one tool try to do two things.

So the question becomes then
what happens when one tool does.

Two purposes and that result, the research
comes from Matt O'Leary out of the uk,

who I think is the top researcher on
observation and evaluation in the world.

And his research says that as soon as
we start to evaluatively rate our grade

teachers, and when he says that he means
pedagogy, the following things happen.

Relational trust between the observer
and the observee is diminished,

which means I as the teacher, don't
trust you as my principal anymore.

And as a result of that, I tend to
play it safe in my practice, which

means I'm not gonna take risks
or innovate much in my practice.

If we're not trying something
new, we're not gonna get better.

So the next question becomes
research wise, well, what does work?

And so for that, we go to a
book called Trust in Schools.

So Chicago Public Schools in the
1990s went through a period of big

educational reform and two, university
of Chicago Education Department

researchers, brick and Schneider,
studied what was going on and they.

They posted the result of their
research in the book Trust in Schools

in 2002, and this is what they said.

This is what their research said.

They said, this is so like, it's so
elusive and obvious at the same time.

To me, it still just blows
me away every time I say it.

It said that relational trust.

Is central to academic improvement.

So it's basically saying, everything
else that's going on, great.

But if we really want people to get
better, we have to have relational trust

if we really want that improvement.

And so they said that schools that had
high relational trust were three times

as likely to improve math and literacy.

Literacy scores As schools that have
low relational trust, schools that have

low relational trust, they said it was
virtually impossible for them to improve.

Unpacking what that relational
trust piece is anymore.

Here's what they said further.

They said relational trust reduces
a teacher's sense of vulnerability.

And that acts as a catalyst for change
because it creates safe spaces for

teachers to be able to risk, take
and experiment in their classroom.

And it all makes sense if you
think about what the research

was saying that wasn't working.

And then the last piece of research
comes from the new teachers project

or TNTP, and that research says.

That if we have more than 10 indicators
on an observation form, we tend to

lose the forest through the trees.

It becomes a tick box exercise,
and we're not really seeing

the craft and art of teaching.

And I think teaching is craft and art.

So they said we ought to put rubrics
on a diet and have 10 or less.

So now the question is what does
trust based observations do?

So we.

Diligently work on building
trusting relationships.

We do that through a series, a
continuous series of 20 minute

unannounced observations using
an observation form that only has

nine core areas of pedagogy on it.

So it's manageable.

It does look daunting at first.

You're right, Glen, but it actually has,
as I think you guys can both attest,

becomes really easy to become provisional.

But even like by day three
of the training am I true?

True.

You guys with

Mike Gladwell: me?

Hundred percent agree.

Yeah.

Yes it does.

Okay.

Alright.

When you first see it
freaked out there Absolutely.

Look daunting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Glen Woodburn: I think that's part of the
value of the training is, you know, if

you try and do this on your own, and we've
connected with a couple administrators

that have tried to do it on their own.

It is overwhelming and it's hard, but
there's so many little tricks and trades

that Craig shares during the training that
makes it manageable and makes it easier.

Craig Randall: And its volume
of practice over and over again.

Absolutely.

It's funny, actually, we've had
three schools that we've trained that

had done it on their own, and every
one of them on Monday afternoon,

they said, oh, I wasn't doing TBO.

So anyway, what else do we do?

Yeah, please.

Mike Gladwell: The other thing I would
add is, you know, when you talked

about like the research, obviously the
relational trust is so important for

growth and achievement, which is duh.

Like we all know that from as an
educator being in a classroom, how

important that is as a teacher.

Of course that makes sense from an
administrator to teacher relationship.

The thing I would add to what's important
is as part of the training that you do,

is it's so much more than just the form.

The form is a huge part of it, but I think
so often we just get caught up in what

is the form and how do I use the form.

But the, so much of your training is
really about the process around the form

and both building up to it and following
up on it and all the little tiny micro

steps that you take to build trust.

Along the way that is more than
just what you're observing and

what you're putting on the form.

Craig Randall: I think that's great
nex that segues right back, I think,

into what we were talking about.

So we have this series of 20 minute
unannounced observations and we

use this form and it's a highly
detailed form and that really comes

in handy for us for building trust.

And really what you're talking about,
Mike, is the how do we build trust?

And so, and the big key is the reflective
conversations that we have, which

are the day after the observation a.

That is really about the
how of building trust.

And actually Brene Brown talks
about the combination between

risk taking vulnerability and
innovation and, and trust.

I'm sorry.

And so she says like, Mike looks
like he's temporarily gone, but I'm

hoping he is gonna pop back on there.

There he is.

Okay.

And so Brene Brown says that
actually vulnerability isn't

a bad thing in and of itself.

And I tend to think of it
almost like the amygdala.

The amygdala is there to protect us,
but sometimes it can get in the way.

So I think as a teacher, if we have
a sense of being overly vulnerable,

that's where we're not gonna take risks.

But maybe that's telling
us something's wrong.

And so for us as school leaders.

I think related to what we're talking
about with observation is lowering that

teacher's sense of vulnerability, so
they do feel safe taking risks and so.

With that in mind, that's exactly what
we do during the reflective conversation.

And Brene Brown talks about
it as like building trust.

And she says, if you think
of a jar, it's like putting a

marble at a time into the jar.

And so let, I think, let's talk
about that because that's the

little how system pieces that I
think you're talking about, Mike.

And so the very first thing that we do
with a reflective conversation is we have

it in the teacher's room, not our office.

And we say.

Whether you're seven 17 or 37, getting
called to the principal's office

calls, like get, feels like getting
called to the principal's office.

And every week when I say that, everyone
always chuckles because they've always

had that time in their career where they
got an email asking to come down and

they all freaked out and it was nothing.

So it just, somehow there's
something about that.

So that's the first marble
that we do to build trust.

The second one is even when
we get to the room with just a

little tiny courtesy, but we ask
permission, Hey, is now a good time?

Instead of just saying, Hey, let's
do this, and they almost always.

Say yes, 99.9% of the time.

But it's a little courtesy
that builds trust too.

The next thing that we do, the next marble
is we get into the room, we sit beside

them, not across from them, and s hi
higher psychological research on hierarchy

in the workplace as when we sit across
from people that magnifies that hierarchy.

Difference and we sit beside
each other that minimize that

difference and people are just more
comfortable and more willing to talk.

The next marble is really we
we're being totally transparent.

So like we're all looking
at screens right now.

Well, that's the form for the
purposes of our reflective

conversation, and so here it is.

I'm not hiding anything from you
and we're being totally transparent.

The next thing that we do, and I know
you guys know this, how powerful this

is too, is that we don't start by
telling, we start by asking, and we

have two questions that we always start
with and so the first question is, what

were you doing pedagogically speaking?

What strategies were you using
to help the students learn?

And so E, even in asking that
question, we're saying, I

value you as a professional.

What your thoughts are, what's important
to you and that sends a big message.

And so even when we ask that question
though, we had another trust, Marvin,

we just say, look, we definitely
wanna hear about those 20 minutes,

but we all know sometimes when we're
observed, we'll think you came in

now you just missed the best part.

Or you laughed right before the best part.

Well, we say, Hey, if that
happened, tell us about that too.

And that little.

Statement just makes teachers
feel so much more comfortable.

And so then we take down their answers
and we share them back with them.

We reframe them into pedagogical language,
which I think we'll leave for another day.

But even then, by sharing those
answers back with them, we're

really demonstrating that we're
listening to what they're saying.

And it means a lot to teachers.

And the second question we ask is,
if you had the opportunity to reteach

the lesson, what, if anything,
might you have done differently?

With that question, we have
another marble that we add as well.

And so with that marble we
say, look, teaching's tough.

And sometimes though,
when we teach, we nail it.

And when we nail it,
we wanna celebrate it.

We never want to feel like we
have to manufacture an answer.

So if I don't want you to feel like you
have to manufacture an answer because

I've asked this question at the same time.

We know, most of the time when we teach,
we tend to think, ah, I wish I would've.

So then we restate the
question that's giving them a.

The opportunity to say that.

Yeah I did nail that.

And sometimes it's, will a
teacher say they nailed it?

And I don't necessarily think so.

Sure.

But I've never had anybody
say that regularly.

And this is about building trust, so
it's not a big deal in the meantime, the

next thing, the next Marvel that we do
is we actually tell them literally what

the goal of trust based observation is.

And we just say, look, we want
to tell you what the goal.

TBO is, it's for me and everybody else
in the building that does observations to

build a trusting enough relationship with
you and everybody else in the building so

that any of us can come to your classroom,
observe you, see you trying something new.

Even though it's highly unlikely,
have it be a disaster yet, as

opposed to a normal, traditional
observation where you're thinking,

oh no, this can't be happening today.

I'm being observed.

You're not even worried because you
know what's gonna happen the next day.

You know, the next day when we come into
your classroom, we're see Glen, Mike.

I love it that you guys are taking a risk.

That's how we get better.

High five fist bump or whatever.

And we just say, because when we
created those conditions, what'll

happen, you'll persist in taking risks.

So everybody else.

And when that happens, we know we're
necessarily gonna grow individually

and collectively do our most
important job, improve teaching and

learning in our building, and then.

The next thing that we do is we
go through the evidence of those

nine areas of the form and that
form that's so daunting at first.

It's really detailed.

So it allows us to be super, super
detailed when we share the evidence

of what we saw, which equals specific
praise is really the same thing.

It is.

So if we think about what praise is.

And what works and doesn't work.

We can say, Hey, great job, but
that doesn't really mean anything

when we can see, hey, that was a
great job on descriptive progress

feedback when you were using coaching.

The use of asking questions to help
students to find their own answers,

that's meaningful to teachers.

And so every time we do that equals
a marble in the bucket as well.

So we go all the way through that,
and then the last thing we do

is we share the form with them.

So really that's the model in.

In a nutshell of what it is and it
gets teachers to really start thinking

about their practice on their own
without us even saying anything.

But it gets them comfortable and safe,
so they do what we want them to do.

Take risks.

You guys wanna jump in and comment at all?

Glen Woodburn: Mike, anything
you wanna start with?

Mike Gladwell: I was following
your lead, Glen, but you know,

just what Glen just, or I'm sorry.

What Craig just talked about is, you
know, really all the things that you

get when you go through a training.

It's, you know, not just the
form, again, it's the process.

The questions reflective
conversation, which is just as

important as the observation.

And it's a real powerful model because
you get an opportunity to kind of

have those regular conversations
with teachers and affirm the really

good things that you're seeing that,
that are happening in the classroom.

Start to build common language pedagogical
language through those conversations,

which is also really important.

And as an administrator, I
think we all strive to be that

education leader for our teachers.

And this model really gives you those
tools as an administrator that you, that.

That not all of us have coming out of
whatever programs that, that we go through

or whatever experiences that we have.

And I feel like this trust-based
observation model with the reflective

conversation and the coaching that,
that Craig provides to kind of get you

prepared for this, really gives you
an, it, gives you the tools, empowers

you to be that in instructional
leader that we all want to be.

And that's a.

And I enjoy doing these observations and
our teachers actually get a lot out of.

Appreciate getting observations because
they get those dopamine boosts because

every time you observe them, you're giving
them some really positive information

of all the good things that you saw,
and they're also seeing some things that

they can grow and improve on sometimes,
oftentimes without you ever having to say

anything in terms of giving them feedback.

It's often just through the reflective
conversation, they're reflecting on

their own practice and seeing some
opportunities for their own growth

without you even having to push it.

So I think there's a lot of power in that

Craig Randall: and it doesn't
mean we can't also offer supported

suggestions down the road too.

'cause that's a part of it.

Mike Gladwell: So, Craig, can
you talk a little bit about what,

sorry, your plan is for this

Craig Randall: podcast?

Yeah, absolutely.

It's interesting.

It's I'm on the road and I honestly
think I probably observed more

different teachers over the course
of a school year than probably any

other human being on the planet.

'cause I probably 300 new teachers
over the course of a year.

And so.

It just hit me last spring that as I'm
doing observations every once in a while.

I mean, not really, oftentimes once
a week, sometimes twice a week, even

three times a week, sometimes I don't
see it in a week, but I'll see 20

minutes of, 'cause they're 20 minute
observations of just brilliance.

And it's oftentimes in a particular
area of pedagogy that really strikes me.

Sometimes it's in, just overall,
something just stands out with

the overall quality of it.

And just somewhere in the late
spring, it just dawned on me, I

think I was actually at school in
England and there was a teacher that

was talking about how did you fail?

How did you fail?

I.

And I think it was a math class, and
the kids were all raising their hands

going, oh, can I share how I failed?

Can I share how I failed?

And they were so excited to share how
they failed and it just blew me away

with the embrace of failure, right?

Because we all fear that so much.

And I was just like, that was just,
it was so amazing to see that.

And so during the reflective conversation,
some of what she does to do, that

came out and it just, I think, hit
me after that, that I see these 20

minutes of teaching brilliance and.

If I don't share them out on a greater way
with the world, I'm missing an opportunity

for teachers to learn from teachers.

And so when you've written
a book, people always say,

what's your next book gonna be?

And people said, Hey, could you
do TBO for the business world?

And that doesn't really interest me.

And could you do TBO for
like for administrators?

And I'm like, Ooh, that's
a pretty small audience.

And also, once you've written a book,
the thought of writing another one,

unless you have a real passion, doesn't
really, 'cause you know how hard it is.

And then I got this
idea we could like have.

20 minutes of it's on the road
with trust-based observations.

It could just be a continuing
series of observations and I mean of

books where each year we highlight
all these different amazing 20

minutes of brilliance we've seen.

And so I had that idea.

And then I went to Idaho in June.

I told my buddy Mike Caldwell about it,
who is a buddy, but he always makes my

life harder in ways that I initially.

Resist, but come to
realize he's always right.

Dammit.

And he said, Craig no.

You have to make it into a podcast.

And then from there you
can make it into a book.

And I was like, damnit, you're right Mike.

So.

Anyway, so we started talking about
that, and then I just recently got

equipment decided to start doing it.

We just video or did our first
podcast with one of our teachers

that we'd seen recently that had
been brilliant in those 20 minutes.

And so we're gonna start sharing
those out every week, interviews with

teachers on what's been going on in
their class, and they'll share out.

What they've done and
what they're proud of.

Share a little bit about their
stories and maybe some of their tricks

along the way that hopefully other
teachers can learn from as well.

Mike Gladwell: I think the
model is gonna be awesome.

I can't wait to start listening to these
and learning from what you're observing.

I know as a principal, one of my favorite
things was going and observe teachers

and then you walk away with some of with.

But some of those really exciting lessons
those 20 minutes of brilliance, and you're

like, you wanna share that with everybody?

Like, yeah, I

Craig Randall: wish everybody else

Mike Gladwell: could
just see what I just saw.

And I think this idea of
kind of a regular podcast.

Especially with what you're doing
and you're going out around the

world and seeing teachers all
across the world and to be able to

share that with other teachers and
administrators, I think is a phenomenal

opportunity to share with others.

So, I'm excited about where it goes and
hearing the first one when it comes out.

Craig Randall: Yeah.

Hopefully soon.

Gotta figure out this editing stuff.

Wanna.

Glen Woodburn: I wanna go back to
something if we can, because yeah, please.

I think one of the things that
you mentioned was Matt O'Leary's

research and that idea of two
tools or one tool and two things.

Yeah.

And some people might be saying, well,
how is it possible then, like, at

the end of the day, you know, whether
it's for contract purposes or for.

District purposes or whatever.

Yeah.

You know, we need to provide some
sort of yes no to our supervisors.

Sure.

And I know that one of the things that,
again, some of the models that we've used,

that I've used in my past have been those,
you know, long look fors and these are

all things we're saying yes and no to.

But one of the things that, you know,
if you read the book and you go through

the training with Craig, one of the
things you start to understand is.

All those things that in the
past we were evaluating and

saying you're yes and no to.

Those are all the things that we turning
into coaching models and those are all the

things that we're encouraging people on.

And the forum talks about
those nine areas of pedagogy.

Those are the things that we're coaching.

Those are the things that
we're giving feedback on.

Those are the things we're giving
fist bumps, high fives to, and

you know, at the end of the year.

There's still some sort of recommendation
from us, not based on the pedagogy though.

We're taking it away and now we're looking
at planning, preparation communication,

collegiality and things like that.

So, although my mindset Yeah,
professionalism, growth mindset.

Yeah.

If we name.

Yeah, but it's important that, you
know, we are still saying to, you

know, again, supervisors, you need
to know whether or not we need to

continue with these TE teachers.

Yes, there is a means of doing
that through TBO, but it is not

through pedagogy evaluation and by.

Taking away that evaluation of the
pedagogy, we're creating even more of

that trust and that risk taking and
those 20 millions of brilliance that

I, you know, I've had the pleasure.

We saw a couple in Boise, Craig, we saw
a couple in Vegas and being able to see

those and share those out, like you guys
have talked about is just phenomenal.

But I just wanted to hit on that a
little bit to say, you do get this,

you do get a way to, to, at the end
of the day, do what's required of us.

In our positions, but in a way
that still builds the trust and

Craig Randall: supports the teachers.

Exactly.

Because the traditional
way doesn't do that.

Mike, do you maybe wanna, just because
we've been talking a little bit about

that relate that to Idaho and some of
what you're working on there as well,

because I think that's pretty interesting.

Yeah, absolutely.

So

Mike Gladwell: currently in Idaho
we have state law board rule that

requires all public schools to utilize
essentially the dan, the four domains

of the Danielson framework to do a
summative evaluation for teachers at

the end of the year on all four domains.

One of the areas that, one of the things
that I'm personally focused on is meeting

with, law lawmakers, policymakers, state
boards, state Department of ed people

currently to really look at those laws
under the guise of, you know, the.

The research that, that Craig's
mentioning and saying, you

know, should we be doing that?

And is there another way?

And essentially what I'm proposing with
my, in my conversations with lawmakers

is let's pull those apart and leave.

If we need to leave domains one and
four into the law as part of our

summative evaluations that we would do.

Allow administrators to focus on domains
two and three, if you will as a focus

on growth and continuous improvement
and pull it away from the evaluative

aspect of teacher observations and so.

That's where conversations are right now.

So it's a bit of a heavy lift 'cause
we're talking about changing, you

know, state law and state board rule
that's been in place for over a decade.

And but I'm, I've been really
pleasantly surprised to a tee.

Everyone I've talked to at this
point is in favor of a change,

seize the rationale for the change.

I'm talking administrators around the.

I've talked to several lawmakers
legislators, et cetera and so forth,

and I think people are actually very
open to the change and see the rationale

and understand that there's research
behind making a change like this.

So thanks to Craig's work, I think we're.

I'm hopeful and optimistic that
we're gonna, may be able to make some

broad scale change here in Idaho.

Craig Randall: And really what we're
saying about with one in four is what

we're talking about, professionalism,
planning, communication, collegiality,

how long, you know, puts my mindset
towards growth, all that and saying,

let's just, let's leave the pedagogy.

That's my teaching move.

That's what.

That's what my pride is.

That's what's so close to my heart.

And when we start having to put ratings
on that, teachers, like anything positive

we say they don't hear because all
they're thinking is, what's my rating?

Am I proficient?

Am I above that?

And so it just it, it's well intended.

It's definitively well intended.

Danielson, Marzano, anything
else that's like that?

It's just, it doesn't work.

And we have 50 years of people basically
saying we can't, we have to separate it

and 55 years and so what we're hoping
for is we can start to get state laws

changed to realize that and recognize
that now, not necessarily mandate

trust-based observations, but at least
allow it to be an alternative option and

to realize no matter what we're doing,
that rating pedagogy gets in the way

of what we're trying to do, which is.

Provide growth opportunities for
teachers so they feel safe taking risks.

So anyway, that's pretty
exciting stuff, Mike.

I love getting your updates on that and
I'm hopeful, and we actually, I had a

conversation recently with someone from
the Utah State Board of Education that's

feeling like they might be able to do
something similar there, who's in charge

of teacher evaluation there, so who knows?

More freedom and teachers
love it and they're way more

willing to take risks and grow.

And that's the bottom line.

Mike Gladwell: Absolutely.

Craig Randall: Gentlemen,
anything else you want to add?

Glen Woodburn: Well, I wanna add, you
know, something that we, the three of

us has talked about off air, but let's
talk about it on air, is that as an

administrator, one of the great things
that I like about this is, first of

all, it gets me in classes every day.

Yeah.

And, you know, I always tried
to do curriculum walkthroughs.

I tried to get into
classes, but this not only.

I'm gonna use the word
force, but in a positive way.

This scheduled me into classes and
had conversations with teachers,

which is really the great part
of my job that I love doing.

But it also gave me chances to
connect with kids every time I was

in a classroom, I was talking with
students, getting their feedback.

You know, what are you learning?

How do you know that you've learned it?

How you're gonna show the teacher that
you've learned the kind of questions

and, when a parent would then call me
because, you know, working at a private

school in capitalist China there were some
parents that were very concerned about

the education their children were getting
and wanted to make sure it was top notch.

And, you know, being able to say to a
parent, Hey, you know, Mike is your child.

And I was in Mike's physics class just
the other day and had a conversation

with Mike about what he was learning.

And, you know, he, I can share back some
of the responses that I have with the

parents directly about their kids and.

Yeah.

Any questions or any concerns
a teacher or a parent has about

what's going on in the classroom?

I know firsthand, 'cause I'm in every
classroom, every three to four weeks.

I can respond back to that.

I can talk from a student perspective
and you know, sometimes I can

agree with a parent, sometimes I
can disagree with a parent, but.

Having that intimate knowledge of
what's going on in every class not only

helps me respond to parent needs and
board needs, but it also helps me plan

my PD for my staff in terms of where
do we need to go, how do we support

staff, how do we support them in their
action research and stuff like that.

So I loved it for the connection
with the teachers, but also

those connections with the kids.

Craig Randall: Super.

I appreciate that.

Mike, anything you wanna add?

No,

Mike Gladwell: just keep
doing what you're doing.

I'm glad to see TBO continue to
grow, and I'm excited to see this

podcast as you as you launch this and
start to get some 20 minute minutes

of brilliance add on the, airwaves
and other people see those things.

So keep doing what you're doing.

Craig Randall: Thanks.

Hey, just there might be some people
that might want to contact you guys and

see if you say the same things off air
as you do on there or whatever, or just

learn more about what you all are doing.

And so would you mind sharing your
contact information for anybody

that's interested in that as well?

Glen Woodburn: Sure.

You can reach me by email.

My email address is GLEN,
just one n@trustbase.com.

Happy to hear from you
wherever you are in the world.

Happy to talk about TBO.

Happy to talk about experiences working
international, working in Ontario.

Whatever you guys wanna talk about.

You

Mike Gladwell: bet.

And I'll share my work email currently
is m Caldwell, M-C-A-L-D-W-E-L-L

at Bloom, and that's BLUU m.org.

Craig Randall: Super.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining
me today on podcast episode zero 20

Minutes of Teaching Brilliance on the
Road with Trust-based observations.

Have a great day, guys.

Thanks

Glen Woodburn: Craig.

See you, Mike.

Thank you.