20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance (On the Road with Trust-Based Observations)

Craig Randall: Hi, and welcome to 20
minutes of Teaching Brilliance on the

Road with trust-based observations.

Today I have with me Joleen Bolter,
an amazing teacher at Obert Elementary

School in Las Vegas, Nevada.

I was able to watch her 2, 3, 4 weeks
ago teaching an amazing math lesson,

and so I'm going to give Joleen a
chance to say hi and introduce herself.

So, hi Joleen.

Hello?

Joleen Boelter: Yes.

I'm Joleen Bolter.

I teach math and science,
departmentalized Math and Science

in fifth grade at over elementary.

And thank you again for
giving me this opportunity.

Craig Randall: Thank you, Joleen.

I'm so grateful that we, that I get to see
amazing teaching and now with the start

of the podcast, have a chance to share
it out so as teachers, we can learn from

each other and all help each other grow.

So I'm really grateful to you for
giving all our listeners out there

a chance to be able to, learn
from you and what we saw that day.

So as we talked a little bit
beforehand and we've been having

a technical difficulties, and this
is our third run through one of

the things that we've learned is
this is a second career for you.

So do you wanna maybe talk about
your first career and how you got

to where you're at and maybe your
history of teaching up to this point?

Sure.

Joleen Boelter: I was a complex commercial
litigation paralegal for 20, 20 ish years.

And when my youngest son was getting
ready to graduate high school I decided

it was time to do something that was more,
that would feed me a little bit more.

And so, this ended up being
the place that I landed and

it was a really great choice.

Craig Randall: So, you were thinking
about teaching a little bit, but tell me

how exactly that happened that, you know,
you wanted something more meaningful.

There could have been lots of things.

How did it come to be teaching?

Joleen Boelter: I was talking with a
group of friends actually, and one of them

was a fifth grade teacher and he said.

I think that you'd enjoy it.

Come sit my classroom and observe.

And I did.

And that was all she wrote.

I knew that's what I wanted to do.

I felt the calling and
it was the right choice.

It was one of the best
decisions I've ever made.

Craig Randall: So you went and finished
whatever schooling you needed to get ready

to become a teacher and boom, did you
know like fifth grade, did that appeal to

you right away because that's the one you
saw, or did it just turn out that way?

Joleen Boelter: So I started in third.

Which I loved because
it's such a fun year.

They grow so much.

And then at one point we had a fifth
grade position open up at my prior

school, and I felt like I needed
a new challenge and it made sense.

And then once I got into the fifth
grade classroom, I knew that.

Okay.

I love that they have this independence
and they have a little bit of SaaS and

they're ready to give a little bit and you
can joke around and all of the fun stuff

that we get to do with fifth graders,

Craig Randall: right?

They're in that just in between age.

That seems just right
in so many ways, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's great.

Well, the day that we were
watching you, it was pure joy.

We looked up and 20 minutes were over.

'cause the, there are 20 minute
unannounced observations.

We're like, where did the time go?

When we walked into the classroom,
the very first thing that stood

out to me was just the buzz.

We walked in and you've got
whiteboards on the wall all over.

The whole classroom spread out, and
I'm not sure how many kids you have,

but it must have been eight, 10 groups
of three spread out across the room.

Working on the whiteboards and
looked like they were teaching

and learning from each other.

Can you tell us like what they were
doing and what that's about in your room?

Because my understanding is
that's a pretty regular part

of what goes on in your class.

Joleen Boelter: Yep.

That's what instruction
looks like most of the time.

We we have three roles at the boards.

They are thinker, writer, and coach.

So each of the kids, we define those
roles together and what it means.

What those roles mean and how
we should behave and what's

correct and what's not correct.

At the beginning of the year, we do
a lot of work just defining what that

behavior should look like, and then
they get rolling with it and they go.

And so we do a little bit of
direct instruction where we

put up our success criteria and
what we wanna learn for the day.

Then we set 'em loose and they go.

Craig Randall: So, so what I'm hearing
you say is, one, there's always a

little bit of direct instruction
because the kids have to know what

the learning objective is and then
what the success is gonna look like.

But then even as I hear you talk
about the thinker, say it again.

Thinker,

Joleen Boelter: coach, writer,
thinker, coach and writer.

Yep.

Craig Randall: Thinker, coach and
writer, that is, that's going on.

Really what's going on in a lot of that
is there's a lot of peer assessment of

each other, peer to peer assessment.

And so one of the things that, that
anybody that does peer assessment well

knows is with this age of a student,
we have to really prepare them.

We can't just expect that they're
gonna get it right from the beginning.

And so your front loading
expectations and behavior, and I'm

sure even practicing how that goes.

Do you want to maybe talk a little
bit more about that because I.

That's so vital, I think, in
setting them up for success.

When you're doing a,
an activity like that.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah, my math teaching
partner and I read the book building

Thinking Classrooms by Peter Lilia Al, and
it kind of sets up those roles and what

they should look like and the original
rubric how you create it with the students

so that they have ownership in it.

And then we create those we create those.

And then yeah we do a little
bit of direct instruction.

And then everything else
is through discovery.

Which we've learned also, one,
if you're standing your brain

engages in a different way.

And if you're on a non-permanent surface,
your brain engages in a different way.

So those were the things, the big
takeaways the studies that they

did in preparation for writing
that book were, and once we saw it

working, were like, oh, here we go.

This is something, and Yes, absolutely.

So if a student doesn't understand a
concept, they're the writer to start.

If someone feels like they have a strategy
that will work, they're the thinker,

and then the coach is just checking to
make sure that all of the the actual

math that we're doing is correct.

And then they switch roles.

So nobody, it we.

Once we get rolling, we make
sure walk around and make sure

we see different handwriting.

We swap the marker and they're
really good at it by now.

They all know that.

Usually one problem, one person's
writing, and then we hand the

marker off and we switch roles.

Craig Randall: So it looks like
it as that's going on and the

students are taking on the different
roles, it feels like there's a lot

of teaching others going on too.

Is that a regular part of the process?

Joleen Boelter: Yeah, absolutely.

'cause one true mastery if we look at
our standards is that explain right

and justify, which you have to do
when you are teaching somebody else.

So, and we kind of talked to them about
that at the beginning of the year.

This is how you know that,
you know material, right?

If you could teach somebody else,
that's a sign that you actually

have grasped it and you don't even
have to talk to me about that.

You know it yourself.

So, yeah the Thinker is the one that
is describing what they're doing.

The coach checks that math, and then
the writer is taking in that information

and learning as they write from the
person that's that's doing the thinking.

Craig Randall: And so as they're doing
that and as they're rotating roles,

if somebody's not getting it, maybe is
the most opposed to a more traditional

style where they're all just working
individually, they're generally being

able to be corrected really quickly.

By their peers, or perhaps if they
don't have the answer, like if

any nobody in the group is Sure.

Then what do they do?

Joleen Boelter: Then the first thing
that they do is check other groups.

And sometimes they'll say, well,
the coach thinks it's this answer,

and they've given their reason.

They've respectfully disagreed.

And the thinker think it's this answer,
but we, and we can't figure it out.

And I, and then they go check
other boards and have those

conversations with other classmates.

Again, because if you can argue and
you can justify why your answer is

correct, we're showing mastery and we can
understand I, those aha moments happen

all the time when they go and talk to
another group of kids and they're like,

oh, I just didn't regroup this a hundred.

Craig Randall: And so much more powerful
too when they're learning from each other

on their own as opposed to being told.

I mean, there's so much going on in
what you're saying, Joleen, because

there, there's teaching others,
there's descriptive progress, feedback.

There's discovery, but it's all
on their own with each other.

It's, which is so much more powerful than
us just doing it on our own or being told

the answer in terms of what's going on.

One of the things that.

Maybe we were talking about a little
bit before too, is you even, we talked

about prepping them with like how we
work constructively with each other.

But you even talked a little bit to me
earlier about how they prep each other.

You prep them on productive struggle and
when it's the right time to go get help.

Do you wanna maybe talk a little bit
and unpack that as well, because I think

that's an important piece for a teacher.

To help their students.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah, absolutely.

And it's different for
each kid, right, too.

That's the thing, you
know, it's different.

And so we have to identify, we
have to identify what it feels

like and what it looks like.

So we kind of make a chart of what success
looks like and what success feels like

and what it feels like along the way.

So that they can understand that, hey,
I'm on the road to success and right now.

I'm plateauing and I need to
find a way to get rolling again.

Craig Randall: So when you do that,
Joleen, is that just you're telling

the kids what that looks like?

Or is that you're working that
out, discovering that with

them together at the beginning.

How does that piece itself together?

Joleen Boelter: I.

So at the very beginning we create a
rubric of what board work looks like and

we define what those behaviors look like.

And the kids do it.

And we do it by going to the boards
and we give them no guidance.

The first couple of days, or at least
the first time, no guidance, you go

to the boards and then we come back
and say what went well, what didn't?

And then we diagnose.

They diagnose themselves what didn't
work and how it could work better.

And then we build to that rubric.

Each day and they each pick a goal.

So I want to make sure that
I'm passing the marker.

I want to make sure that I'm
engaging even when it's not my

term, to think all of those things.

And then those behaviors just
become rote as you continue to

Craig Randall: do it.

So just little mini goals
for them along the way.

I must imagine I, and I think this is
really important for teachers out there,

that when you're doing those first couple
of days and you're just letting them go

without any rules and you're watching.

Some chaos and I'm imagining perhaps some
disaster, perhaps some arguments going on.

Like tell me how you get through
that part with knowing that's gonna

get you to where you go, where
you just must be dying to jump in.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah, so basically we
go to the boards and come back a lot.

So now in our lessons, they're pretty
much self-sustaining for 20 to 45

minutes, depending on the lesson.

But at the beginning, sometimes it's
one minute and we come back into the

middle of the room and we have discussion
about what went well and what didn't.

And again, it's not me saying.

Hey, please don't do that.

It's them defining the behavior
and then giving us, we have the

accountability talk on the wall so
they, they can say, I disagree with you

because, or instead of saying you're
wrong, so that we don't shut down.

You know, all of those things take a
couple of weeks to build and really don't

really start flying until like six weeks.

Craig Randall: So that's that.

Teaching them the , appropriate
peer-to-peer descriptive progress

feedback, interaction behaviors.

But like when you, I just gotta imagine
like, maybe not now because you've been

doing it a little bit, but the very
first year you did this and they're,

you're just giving them, I mean.

Having them go at it without the
rules really being established.

And you know, it's to get to a point
right, where you're getting them to

understand what is and isn't working,
which helps to build the understanding

and rubric for what that goes.

But it, I just, I can't imagine the
first year or two like if somebody

new is gonna be doing this you.

You just gotta be chomping
at the bit to jump in.

Tell me how you don't do that.

Joleen Boelter: So we one, you
have somebody Good with you.

So I have an amazing fifth grade
teaching partner, and we did it together.

We read the book together, we made
our map, we made our goals together.

And then we talked every day, like
after the first couple of days, oh my

God, what are we gonna do about this?

How can we do this in a
way that they're buying in?

And the book is really great.

At, and that community is really great
at giving you ideas when you hit a

wall or when you have uc behavior.

And I know that the first couple of
weeks people were saying, oh, just,

you know, just keep going with it.

Keep defining, keep with
the rubric, having them self

assessed and we'll get there.

And I'm like, I don't know.

We, because we did it last
year, it was our first year.

I'm like, I don't know.

But it did, we got there, you
know, we definitely got there.

And it takes, we don't have kids
disengaging and not doing math right?

Which is what would happen after
seven minutes of direct instruction.

Often you would start to see those
kids kind of dropping off, and we

don't have that anymore, which is

Craig Randall: really nice.

So some of what I hear you saying,
Joleen, is that as you're starting this

new, is that one, having a partner and
a sounding board to be able to, who's

experiencing the same things because
you've just gotta be biting your tongue.

And I mean, there's gotta be a feeling
at the very first, sometimes like,

oh no, this is worse than before.

Right.

And so having an understanding
almost that they're.

A little implementation dip, but I
heard you saying persevering, sticking

through, having grit or whatever,
knowing that it'll get there, like

those are some of the key components.

And then obviously the advantage of
that, if I'm hearing you correctly,

is then because the kids are making
their own discoveries and then.

They're the ones that are creating
and you are knowing to even, so stop

it quickly before it gets too outta
control and bring them back, right?

And all of that.

And then more power in what's
being created because they've

created it themselves.

Am I hearing all that correctly?

Joleen Boelter: Yeah.

And I think that as you go through
the school year, the kids get to a

different trust with you as well.

Right?

So you've got you've always
had that handful of kids that.

You've gotta prove yourself to
because they're not ready to trust

you or trust you enough to fail.

Right?

That's the big thing that I like about
the boards on the wall, because within

the two days, you're gonna make a mistake
and half the class is gonna see it.

So it really jumpstarts that trusting
your classroom because everybody does it.

Every single student sees
it, so that's really helpful.

It's painful, but it's helpful.

And then once we get over the
hump, it's a little bit easier.

Craig Randall: So Joleen,
how do you get to the kids?

How do, does it just happen?

I mean, do you talk about the failure
and the getting to failure piece?

Does it just happen?

How do you get to the point where the
kids are okay to fail and keep working?

Especially when it's in kind of on
stage in a way, like on a mini stage?

Yeah.

How did, how does that piece happen?

Joleen Boelter: Well, I think that
one thing that we both tried to do

this year 'cause we did it last year
for the first time and this year

one of our, goals together was that
individual conversations with students.

So once they start rolling, to some extent
we want to talk to every kid for three

to five minutes every two weeks, and we
want to talk about academics and we wanna

talk about what's going on in their life.

And that has led this process to go a lot
more quickly because we gained that trust.

Not only do they start trusting their
peers, but our, their trust with us

comes a little bit more quickly 'cause
they understand that we care about

them more than just a mathematician.

That we care about them as a whole kiddo.

Craig Randall: So you're having individual
conversations with the, with each child

and as you're doing that and you're
explaining what's going on and you're

talking to them about it and mistakes
they get more comfortable in trusting and

that sort of makes them more okay with.

Knowing that I'm gonna make mistakes
in front of other people, and so

therefore, accepting failure is, it's
just a normal part of the learning

process as opposed to a bad thing
that I need to be embarrassed about.

Is that, am I

Joleen Boelter: hearing that?

And another thing that we do is we at the
beginning, we celebrate our successes.

So at the board, even if you had a
really rough day at the board, find

one thing that you're proud of.

Find one thing that
you'd like to improve on.

So both of those things
happening consistently.

Then they start not looking for
failures, they start looking for success.

And that mindset changes
kind of everything.

Craig Randall: Do they have them do that
through like an exit ticket kind of thing?

Or do they write it down or
do they just think about it?

How does that manifest?

So for

Joleen Boelter: the boards at
the beginning of the year, we

make that rubric and it's looks
like, doesn't look like, right.

So at the beginning they're doing, looks
like, doesn't look like, and then they're

circling one thing they were proud of.

'cause we made that rubric together.

There's like seven behaviors
and seven behaviors, and

that's what that starts with.

But then we transferred over
to actual content, right?

So when my kids.

They, when they finish an assessment, they
say, you know what, I got multiplying, but

I don't have multiplying decimals 'cause
I don't understand the place value yet.

And if they know I'm not doing the heavy
lifting right, I'm, they're driving

their own education at Some's, gonna
sustain them for the rest of their life.

So I'm really pleased.

And again, that's something we started
this year and we were hoping that it

would take root and it really has,
I'm really starting to see the payoff.

Craig Randall: Of them just learning
from each other and taking it on and

being, , I mean, that's so amazing if
you think about it would, and you have

a variant of kids, but that because
they're working with each other, that

they can take on that failure and know
that my teacher's not bailing me out.

Not that of course they know
you there to support them.

Right.

But that, that they're gonna learn
it on their own and from their peers.

There's just a, there's a whole
nother level of power for the student.

And not just in the math learning, but
just in themselves and their esteem and

their, and grit and persevere, right.

All that.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah.

And then the kids scaffold the instruction
for each other for different levels

of learning in such an authentic
way that when we try to manufacture

that, yes, we can do a good job.

And as teachers we do scaffold it and
we do put in that supports for different

learning levels, but they do it in
a natural way that doesn't require.

Us to talk and talk about it.

It happens.

And then those kids take that
scaffolding back to their independent

work and show what they've learned
and it sits with them differently.

Craig Randall: Well, and I know when
we were in your classroom, you talked

to the kids about you'll show some
sample problems and you'll have, I

think, was it mild, medium, and spicy?

Can you talk about that?

Yeah.

'cause I think that blends into this
in a way, what you're gonna do as well.

Joleen Boelter: So we
pick and it alternates.

Sometimes it's just one problem
depending on where we are in the

curriculum and what they need to do.

But as we continue through the
curriculum, a after the first, maybe

first or second lesson, and then
they have mild, medium, and spicy.

And sometimes that's spicy question
is an end of unit question.

And they've learned without me
saying a word, that medium is

probably where they need to be.

So that, and mild is, you know what,
my, I'm getting my feet wet and I'm

not yet ready to take this big bite.

So I know that I can do this and
I can do this successfully, and

I, that's what I'm gonna do today.

And ironically most of
them pick medium or spicy.

It's really interesting to watch
it unfold because sometimes.

Depending on what we're doing, if we've
had some frustration at the boards we'll

have the majority of class pick mild
or medium, but most days it's medium or

Craig Randall: spicy.

And somehow that ties into the whole
trust and learning from each other thing

where they're willing to push themselves
to the, to that far end of their zone.

Approximal development
is what I'm hearing.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah, absolutely.

It's really been fun to watch.

I'm so glad we read this book.

Craig Randall: So when you're
doing that too, does that

also give you a sense though?

Because I know you're watching everything
that's going on, but of course at

some point in time you, you have to.

Jump in and support in
whatever way it does.

And as I remember watching it that day,
'cause you had them come to the carpet

for like two, three minutes before they
went back out and started working again.

And that mild, medium and spicy, I
thought they gave the thumbs or a finger

did to demonstrate which one they did.

Yeah.

And that, if I'm not mistaken, that gives
you some information about who I might

wanna initially keep an eye on to support.

Do you want to talk about that

Joleen Boelter: as well?

So also on the top of their success
criteria, we have each of the

goals for the learning lesson,
whatever the intention is, or, and

it says I've got it yes or not yet.

So if it's not yet that tells me
that I need to help or I need to

give 'em a little confidence boost.

And then based on that
feedback, that's how.

We determine who we're working
with, if we need to do a little

bit more independent small group
instruction that day on that topic.

And then we also have the kids that
maybe have not mastered another

standard, and we're gonna pull 'em back
and give 'em some instruction on that.

So usually we try to do
at least one of each.

Sometimes if we're, if things are going
great, a couple try to get through

three groups, but for the most part
the, they are able and they love.

They have no issue now saying Not
yet, and they have no, and they're

very proud when they say yes.

But,

Craig Randall: and again, that
comes down to, to trust, right?

You've built enough trust that
it's okay for them to say they

don't have it and know that's okay.

And then again, because it's not just
you helping them, but because they

can learn almost more immediately
from their peers, they don't have

to sit in that struggle period.

That's the overwhelming part, too
long before they're getting the help.

And that, I just think that's just such a.

A a massive difference in helping
those kids to build success.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah.

And one of the recent webinars that
we that in this thinking classroom

group that we were part of, said if
they can identify mild, medium, and

spicy or halfway there, because they
at least know the content enough to

know that this is a harder problem.

And this is where I should be, and
this is, you know, my stepping stone.

So knowing even if they can identify them.

That's, that gives me data
immediately, instant feedback.

And then again, once they do the problem,
Hey, I've got this part of this learning

attention, but I don't have this part.

So yeah, it's really empowering.

Craig Randall: It's so interesting because
I mean, as we're sitting here and talking

about it, and of course I always think
about things in terms of the trust-based

observation, nine areas of pedagogy
and we're filling in so much of it.

Just chatting it out here because
within formative assessment

we say there's three types.

There's teacher formative assessment,
peer-to-peer formative assessment, and

student self formative assessment, and
really all three of those are going on

almost constantly in your classroom.

Just from what we're talking about,
all three of those are just things

that we've just described in the
last 20 minutes of our conversation.

And then on, on top of that, let's we
always have the descriptive progress

feedback next to the formative assessment
on, on, on the observation form.

And so one of the other things that
really stood out to me from watching

in your classroom is when we talk
about the types of descriptive progress

feedback, and they all have value.

The first is basic, where we're giving the
students the answer to get them on track.

The instructional is just those
little tidbits of instruction to

help guide them along the way.

The one that I personally think is the
most powerful is the coaching, where

we're strictly using questions to get
them going and so as we watched in your

classroom I don't even think we could
keep up with all the questions, but

somehow some way your use of coaching and.

Questions and tailoring each
question to the level of each

student was super, super impressive.

Do you mind talking about your use of
descriptive progress feedback, especially

with the questions coaching piece.

Joleen Boelter: So those mild, medium
and spicy questions that we identify we

sometimes we identify them beforehand
so we know what we're looking for

and sometimes I'll throw them out.

And write three on the board
because they've moved through

whatever they're doing so quickly.

Or they need some scaffolding.

They're not quite there, so we
need to dial it back a little bit.

But for the most part it's again, that
student knowing what success looks

like and how they're going to get there
and what success feels like to them.

And when they're working on
a problem and they say, oh.

I do know how to estimate, but I don't
know what to do after I've estimated, I'm

struggling with getting started on that.

So those conversations, and most
of the time it's, well, do you

have an example in your notebook?

Have you done this?

Did you do this at the boards?

What do you think you
can do to get started?

So most of the questions are inquiry
based so that they take the action.

And then there are times when kids are.

It doesn't happen as much as it
used to, but there are times when

they're genuinely frustrated we're
just gonna dial it back and bring

you back and we're gonna work on it.

You know,

Craig Randall: which is okay.

It just, yeah, absolute everything.

That's why we said all different
points along the way, and sometimes

even finding a different way to
reteach it to help the kid get there.

But whenever possible, you, that's
the, you're feeling them out

along the way, and that's like.

The last resort maybe isn't the right
way of phrasing it, but whenever I

can first get them to get there on
their own, that's what I'm gonna do.

And then if we see ultimately that's
not there, then that's what I'm

gonna jump into to that other, yeah.

And you also probably have a sense
of which kids are the ones that

might need that a little more than
others because you're not getting

to learn your students as well.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah, and I, what I've
learned too is that when we jump to small

group too quickly, then that becomes
a crutch to some extent for students.

So making sure that we give them
enough time to struggle and give

them enough time to find, 'cause.

A lot of times with math, it's just
figuring out what your strategy and where

you take the problem apart and what works
for your brain, which is why having.

Three different people at a board
and thinking about it differently

really helps foster that growth.

And then the ability, not

Craig Randall: only that, but then as
you said to when I don't have it, to

be able to go with the group, go seek
out help from the group next to me.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah, and what we've
started in the last couple of weeks

is we have a couple of students
that we see kind of soaring and we

are giving them those extensions.

But what we've done is one of my students
said, Hey, you know, I noticed that

you're helping some students at the
table sometimes after the lesson's done.

Can I do that?

Absolutely.

So now pretty much a student is
leading another group depending on

where they are, while I'm leading
another group right next to them.

And just why not?

Absolutely.

Let's go.

Let's do it.

Craig Randall: Well, I mean on, you
know, we've got that pyramid on the

form, the learning retention and it
starts with lecture, direct instruction.

Then it goes to audio, visual
and demonstration and modeling,

which are all important, right?

You have to have some of that along
the way, and then , it goes to group or

team discussion, which that's what we're
talking about really almost everything

that we're talking about right now,
we're talking about learning by doing,

which they're doing at the same time.

And then within those three groups,
and then even with those people leading

those other groups, it's teaching others.

And those bottom three, which is where
you're spending like 90% of your time.

That's that active learning where
that's where the greatest retention

and the real learning going on.

I mean, you're just, you're living in that
area with what you're doing with the kids.

Joleen Boelter: Yeah.

And I feel like this year, and this
is anecdotal at this point, we'll see

the proof will be as we continue down
and we get a little bit more data.

But I feel like students
have a better grasp of.

What ma they understand what mastery
is in a way that they haven't before.

And they understand what tools can get
them there, and they understand where

they are on the mastery chart, right?

Which is just, we can't ask
for much more than that.

Craig Randall: And that's all.

Just building up over time.

What you're doing that, so you're
educating them into well, and they're

experiencing it really to learn
what those are as you're explaining

what it is all at the same time.

And over time, their own understanding
of that becomes their reality.

And when you understand where
you're at and then how to get

there, what mastery is, yeah.

Then the process, especially
when you're getting support from

classmates, is so much easier.

Joleen Boelter: I'm gonna be honest
too, I used to put objectives up.

On the board because we
are required to do so.

Right?

Yeah.

And I do like inquiry based them
finding their way to the objective.

I think there's value in that, but,
and because we were required to

districtwide this year I had to find
a way that made it meaningful and it

wasn't just to meet some expectation.

And yeah, I think and again, my, my math
teaching partner came up with some great

ideas to where we are giving them that
learning intention, which is important,

but we're doing it in a way that they're.

They're seeing success, what success
looks like, and then they're going out.

'cause we don't want mimics, right?

We don't want mimics, I don't want you
to do it the way that I'm doing it.

Right.

I want you to find the way that
works for you because that's what

you're gonna be able to repeat when
it comes time to show what you know.

Craig Randall: So, let's go One
last area piece on this, and

that's the groups themselves.

And so are those groups, like,
are they heterogeneous groups?

Are they homogenous groups?

Do they stay together for
a certain period of time?

How do the, how do those little teamings
of three, we know they rotate roles

within each day, so they're doing
all three roles multiple times, but

how do the groups form and function.

Joleen Boelter: As they come in the
door, we have cards that have, I do

superheroes and they have a different
superhero on which I shuffle the cards up.

And then those superheroes are on each
table and that's where they go and that's

where they do their first their first
round of board work with that group.

And then I have a randomizer that I'll use
if we need to do some more work because.

If you work with somebody for 25 or
30 minutes, sometimes they're gonna

say something that's gonna bug you
and it's gonna impede your learning.

So giving them a chance to get
with somebody other than the people

that they were working with for
that time in case that's happened.

And maybe getting with a group where
I have a little bit more knowledge

then the other two students at this
group and I get my moment to shine

and share that knowledge that I have.

So, and again we took
that from the book and I.

I have tried to make groups forever
that I thought, you know, you sit there

with a spreadsheet and you put them
and you overthink them and you think

that you finally got it, and then you
put them, they go out into practice and

you're like, well, that did not work.

That did not work at all.

And the first, like, when we started with
random groups, we saw less confrontation,

we saw less, one person doing the work.

All of these things that,
that we were looking for.

And they know that even if they
end up with somebody, 'cause at the

beginning of the year they'll say,
well, you know, last year this person

said something that I didn't like.

So I'd rather not be in a group with them.

And I've said, we can do
anything for 20 minutes.

Right?

We can do anything for 20 minutes.

Right?

So we're gonna try and getting
them buying back into and building

that community rather than
closing the door on the community.

And I don't get asked that anymore,
which is surprising to me too.

Craig Randall: That's amazing.

So really just every day it's randomized.

It's three different people.

Sometimes some groups are gonna work
better than others, but no matter what,

I'm learning to work with somebody for
20 minutes, and there's value in that

as a human being and in community.

And even so, I still have a
group to my left and to my right.

So even if it's not an ideal
group, there's help, right?

Available.

But it sounds like because there's
shorter groups and changing all the

time, in some ways, that ends up
making it even more valuable and

Joleen Boelter: productive.

Yeah.

And we don't really police group
migration other than you have to, all

your group members have to go with you.

So if there have been a couple of times
when we've been, you know, I'll throw out

a really tough task where we're compiling
some stuff that we've done all year, and

nine kids, we'll get together around one
board and start having a conversation.

And I'm like, okay,
this is awesome, right?

This is what we're, this
is what we wanna see.

Craig Randall: It's amazingly powerful.

Joleen, thank you so, so much for
sharing o on all of this today.

Can you one more time, just name
the book and the author again?

We'll put it in the show notes as well.

Yeah.

Joleen Boelter: It's Building
Thinking Classrooms by Peter Lial.

Craig Randall: It was joyful to watch.

And now hearing it even more, I
wish I could come back and watch

it again, like every day for a week
to really see it fully in action

over an extended period of time.

Does it also, do you do the same kind
of thing in your science class as well?

Joleen Boelter: Yeah.

Yeah.

I can't imagine not running a classroom
and sometimes, you know, if you're

doing experiments, you have to sit.

A seat.

Sure.

And, but when we do the
discovery questions, we

throw them out to boards too.

And they're not the groups
that they were in for math.

They're a different group.

But yeah.

And there are times when I'm like,
okay, I think this concept, I need

to do more direct instruction.

I feel it, and every time I do it.

I'm like, no, I didn't.

No, I did not.

I, you know, and it will happen maybe two
or three times throughout the year where

we're dealing with this complex problem.

I wanna make sure that I get what they
need, and then I go, I don't remember

how I taught before, or how I could
do this for, you know, sustained

that direct instruction for those
long periods of time, because I can't

Craig Randall: make it through it.

In a way that's a really important
point that I can't make it through.

But also just an important point,
that sense of, I have to pull myself

back from maybe the way that I
went to school and I was taught to

realizing and then as you see this.

It's still, that urge is sometimes there.

So I've gotta pull myself back and go no.

I I know I want to, but I can't.

And the learning's more valuable and
that takes time and patience as well.

Right.

And probably having your teaching partner
again, that, that relationship with

them probably factors into that as well.

Yeah,

Joleen Boelter: absolutely.

And great guidance.

I, we have great leaders at our school and
we're really lucky to have the guidance.

'cause we went in the first year
that we were working with Melissa and

Charla and said, we read this book.

We wanna put boards around our
room and not do direct instruction

the way that we've done it.

And they said they read the book
and they said, sounds great.

Isn't that great?

That factors in too.

Yeah.

And if it doesn't work, I think the
words that she said you'll fail forward.

And having that said to you as the
first time you walked into, she,

she had only seen me teach one time.

You know, and having that belief and
that support is just we're pretty lucky.

And you,

Craig Randall: I hope you know that.

My belief is that as school leaders
with teachers, we ought to be

modeling the same thing we want
our teachers to do with students.

I mean, that's really what
Trust-based observations is about,

is we wanna be doing with you
what we want our kids to be doing.

And it sounds like, and I'm not
surprised after spending a week

of your school that it's happening
on both ends, just the way we.

Wanted to.

Yeah.

Joleen, could you, for anybody that
would like to reach out and maybe

learn a little bit more from you if
they have doing that, would you mind

sharing like some contact information
the, for our listeners out there?

Sure.

Joleen Boelter: I am at
Twitter and Instagram at.

Ms.

B, so SB in class.

Both of those and then my,
quite honestly, if you want to

just send, shoot me an email.

It's Peter, PETE, rjk at NV dot ccsd.

Do net.

Craig Randall: Super.

Thanks so much Joleen.

It was an absolute pleasure to listen
to you today and it was even more of

a pleasure to get to watch you for
those 20 minutes a couple weeks back.

So thank you so, so much for joining us
today on 20 minutes of teaching Brilliance

on the Road with trust-based observations.

Joleen Boelter: Thank you so much.

Have a wonderful afternoon.

Thanks Joleen.

Craig Randall: Alright.