20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance (On the Road with Trust-Based Observations)

Paula Dudgeon
===

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to 20 minutes of teaching brilliance on the road with Trust Based Observations. Every week while training school leaders, Craig Randall, the developer of Trust Based Observations, witnesses brilliant teaching during their 20 minute observations. Wanting to share that teaching brilliance with others, we talk shop with those teachers, learning what they do that is so impactful. We hope you enjoy.

Craig Randall: Hello and welcome to another edition of 20 minutes of teaching brilliance on the road with trust based observations. This is actually our first episode of season two, so I'm pretty excited to have this week's guest with us. The last two weeks I was in rural Minnesota training nine schools in the New Ulm Diocese, nine Catholic schools in the New Ulm Diocese, which I did here by the way.

Craig Randall: over the, uh, last week that is the most rural diocese in the entire country.

Paula Dudgeon: That is true. That

Craig Randall: I think you hang your [00:01:00] hat on in, in an interesting way. And actually, we talked about some things later in the week about that, that were your, not your week, the week after that, that are actually kind of interesting about that, if a rural district like yours can do something, then so can any other district.

Craig Randall: So having said that, this week, uh, I have Paula Dudgeon. Paula is at Holy Redeemer, uh, school in Marshall, Minnesota, which, by the way, for any football fans out there, I did not know this, but Trey Lance, who used to be the San Francisco quarterback, who's now with Dallas, uh, grew up in Marshall, Minnesota, and even went to Holy Redeemer, which I thought was really cool as a big sports fan, a Seahawks fan, so love me or hate

Paula Dudgeon: Oh,

Craig Randall: So anyway, Paula, I would love it if you would introduce yourself to our listening audience, maybe tell them about your background, your career, how you got started, and how you ended up where you're at now. Although I know you've been there a while.

Paula Dudgeon: Yeah. Glad to. Um, yeah. So like Craig said, my name is Paula [00:02:00] Dudgeon. I have been here at Holy Redeemer in Marshall. This is my 29th year. And all of those years, except my first year, were in, have been in kindergarten. The first year I taught seventh and eighth grade language arts and religion.

Craig Randall: didn't know that.

Paula Dudgeon: Oh, that was not a fit for me in any way, shape or form, but I

Craig Randall: matters. Fit matters.

Paula Dudgeon: But I do tell people that, um, in some ways they're very similar. They're kind of in that figuring out their body's time again. They're figuring out the opposite sex relationships. It's a new learning

Craig Randall: But in a different way.

Paula Dudgeon: In a very, in a very different way, yes. So, but the 7th and 8th graders were not a fit. Um, I, after this many years, I'm pretty sure kindergarten is a fit.

Paula Dudgeon: I am a rural Minnesota girl. I grew up just about. 25 minutes from Marshall. So this is has been my area most of my life. Um, before I started teaching, I was in youth ministry in Wisconsin. Um, but I have been here [00:03:00] for the majority of my time in kindergarten. That's my experience.

Craig Randall: Edmarsh is a nice town. It's got some charm to it. And, uh, it sounds funny to say this on a, it's a perspective scale, but it's, it's the regional hub, really. Of all the little small towns that are around there and it has a university and even an airport, right?

Paula Dudgeon: Yes. Yep. Absolutely. Nope. There's a lot going on. A lot to be proud of.

Craig Randall: so when I watched your class, I was just I was just giddy watching you do your work You it was magical. It was kindergarten. So as we were kind of saying beforehand I've seen a lot of kindergarten in first grade carpet time calendar all those things that we do in in those grades with our kids and It was the best I've ever seen, and, um, I think, uh, we're gonna talk about, well, maybe we'll jump to the behavior management first and then come back to the relationship piece, but I think the thing that, like, the very first thing that really stood out was [00:04:00] when we're at that time, I see a lot of really well intended good teachers Keep the kids sitting on that carpet for a long time, just sitting in the same spot and your sense of an understanding of movement and how crucial that is to keeping them focused and energized and really engaged in that.

Craig Randall: So do you want to start off just talking maybe about that piece first and then we'll, we'll take it from there because it was, it was so good to see,

Paula Dudgeon: Sure. Well, I appreciate that. That's very kind of you. I mean, I think it's only fair to say that I certainly didn't begin at that sense when I started in kindergarten. Um, but I think they also give you a lot of clues. And I think you have to, um, when you're in a classroom, especially with little kids, they can't tell me, you know, Ms.

Paula Dudgeon: Studgeon, I need to move. They can't tell me, Ms. Studgeon, I'm feeling wiggly. So you kind of have to be willing to. buy into their signs and buy into what their body tells you. Um, and their body tells you that about every five to 10 minutes [00:05:00] they need to move somehow, whether it's just to stand up and change positions, whether it's to move the whole body.

Paula Dudgeon: Um, and I'm a really big believer that that movement. Also has to connect to their learning, you know, we can move for the sake of movement and we do that as well I think with kindergartners with preschoolers with that age, they have to move they have to have that opportunity But I think when we can connect it Um, with the learning, with what they're supposed, what I want them to be gaining in instruction, then I think it also makes that movement more purposeful, it makes their learning more purposeful.

Paula Dudgeon: And hopefully for kids that are very kinesthetically inclined or kids, you know, that are, that are not orally inclined, maybe, that helps them also then to stay tuned, you know, into where I'm going, kind of what my, Um, and then I'm just fighting the battle of saying, can you sit still? Can you sit still?

Paula Dudgeon: You know, don't do it. And that's just a waste of their time and mine.[00:06:00]

Craig Randall: And then we're not really focusing on learning as much as much as just managing behavior that if I just made this other little. So I find it really interesting, and I'm so grateful that you said this, because teaching is a lifelong learning process, right? I mean, we've never mastered it. I, I, Trust Based Observations isn't over.

Craig Randall: I, it learns and I grow every single week with that. And so, you said that it wasn't like that at first, and, and so, From not like that. Do you, do you, do you have any distinct memories of like where that started to click and how that developed over, was it sudden? Was it over time? The whole movement piece, because I think that's really interesting and powerful for other teachers, particularly younger teachers, but even more veteran teachers, because it doesn't matter when we discover it, if we discover it now we can make, uh, steps, specific growth steps to change and grow that and make the learning more powerful.

Craig Randall: That's awesome. So I'd love if you could share out a little bit on that.

Paula Dudgeon: You know, I can't say that I would necessarily be able [00:07:00] to say a specific time, but I remember very clearly

Craig Randall: 4th, 19 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, okay.

Paula Dudgeon: yeah, let's not go there. Um, when I

Craig Randall: 2000 and something, sorry.

Paula Dudgeon: yes, there you go. See. So when I started teaching kindergarten, I was only teaching half day kindergarten. Um, I had a group of kids, I had a group of kids in the morning, I had a group of kids in the afternoon. Um, and ironically, my morning kids were always kids from the country, because they would ride the bus. And then my afternoon kids were always kids from the, from the city, or in town in the city limits. And when we went from that half day program, Where every minute count, every minute count. When we went to a full day program, one of the commitments that the team that I worked with at that time, when we were evolving programs and Minnesota was big on all day kindergarten, was really a commitment to say, We're not going to increase the load, we're not going to, [00:08:00] because they're here more, we're not going to say, now you need to know more, but we made a commitment to, we're going to, we made a commitment to say, we have time now to do more things that, you know, to use the phrase that are developmentally appropriate.

Paula Dudgeon: And that, that all of a sudden, when I could have calendar for more than five minutes, then, then it was the, okay, now I have more time. But how do I keep them engaged? Because I still want to teach those skills. I still want them. And so that's also part of when, like, using a real calendar folder, um, and there are thousands of versions out there.

Paula Dudgeon: But that's also part of when that evolved for me, because I knew that I also needed some type of evidence, and evidence in my career has become more and more, um, critical. Um, and that's also when I figured out, okay, this is great. I have more time. But they're not necessarily going to stay with me for more time unless I provide them some other [00:09:00] opportunities, you know, that was 30 years, 25 years ago.

Paula Dudgeon: I like to think I've gotten better about understanding their movement. Um, but it was a big lesson to figure out, oh, I have more time, but I cannot, I have to now help them with that more time. And that, that meant they have to move. They have to get up and change positions, whatever the case was.

Craig Randall: when you had the gifted more time, you realize you had to manage time better because then now that it's not a rest calendar, I've got to, Oh my word, the kids are, it isn't the way I planned it when it was five minutes. And so it's, it's, isn't that so funny how we just have to react. Teaching is so reacting in the moment, always to everything and it's, that's

Paula Dudgeon: And I would, exactly. And I would say the other thing that I never was really sure about, but really made it important to me to listen to my students and to listen to their parents, was I was never really sure about having some type of a calendar folder with the pages of the work and, um, and those kinds of things.

Paula Dudgeon: Um, and, but the kids, [00:10:00] loved it. The kids loved everything about it. The parents have continually in all the years that I've done it, the parents continually say, this is really good. We get this home. We can see the growth, you know, from the way they write a number in September to the way I expect them to be able to write a number by May.

Paula Dudgeon: So I feel like it also gives that data. It gives a documentation that everybody loves to talk about, but is sometimes really hard to do in kindergarten. So I feel like I'm getting a lot about. For my buck, so to speak, in that time.

Craig Randall: I'm going to add even more to that because, I It's important. It shouldn't be our driver is keeping parents happy. I don't think that at all, but we know parents want to know things and that's evolved and I don't think I'm even going to go there. But, but what I will say is that what I care most about with that is that.

Craig Randall: It's, it's the active level of the learning that happens because they have that with them because there's so much more doing, not just the teacher or the one kid taking [00:11:00] turns saying the days and the months and all that every kid in your class because you've got these little notebooks. So when they're on the carpet, they bring them with them.

Craig Randall: them with their writing utensil. And so they're actively participating in it. So instantly that gets them more engaged in the process, which, by the way, on a behavioral scale, scale, right? Engagement. means they're going to be on task more. So they're engaged. It's on task for, but would they, which it all works together because besides being on task and engaged, I'm learning it so much more as a kindergarten or anybody when I'm doing it and not just sitting and listening to, to the person talking.

Paula Dudgeon: Yeah, a hundred percent. Absolutely. And I think, you know, the pages are, the pages vary. We don't do the same pages necessarily every day because I have to be mindful of the time and the skills. But absolutely, and I think that also helps that engagement because there is a sense of some routine that helps with that behavior.

Paula Dudgeon: They, they can't [00:12:00] anticipate what is she gonna do? What is she gonna ask us to do? And yet, I may ask them to flip to a page that we haven't necessarily done. And then I have something fresh and new and they're staying engaged and then the next day I can go back to the other things. So it, you know, having a little bit of something there for them is, is worth every, every minute of copying and hole punching and all the things that that involves.

Craig Randall: Yeah, well, yeah, I mean on both behavior and and even more so they're learning more. I mean, you know that one of the things that we have on on the on the form is that learning principles pyramid, right? And we list there there's eight areas. There's there's lecture direct instruction. There is audio visual.

Craig Randall: There's demonstration to modeling There's reading this class discussion. There's practice. There's pair team discussion learning by doing and teaching others and I think I see more people through the lens of teacher observations, honestly, than any other human being each year, and so when I see these calendar, carpet time, [00:13:00] whatever you want to call them in the morning, I know it's not just calendar, but, but all these morning routines that we're doing, it oftentimes Then we say all eight of those areas are valuable, but we talked about the ones that are more receptive versus the ones that are more active.

Craig Randall: And we all know when you're more actively involved, you learn more. And so when all of a sudden they're not just there, but they're doing while they're there, they're learning by doing while they're there, they're in that active part of that pyramid where a lot of times it's that class discussion where I'm calling on one kid at a time and they're speaking up and then it's more receptive and it's not, I think it's way less engaging, but even more importantly, it's way less learning that's going on. So it's like, that piece of that combined with the sense of movement, it's just, it's such a separator.

Paula Dudgeon: Right. And I think, you know, when you talk about the receptive part, I think that's another one of those things where. You have to pay attention to their bodies. You have to pay attention to what they're doing, you know. And I know that when I slide [00:14:00] very easily into too much that's receptive, when I slide into, oh, Ms.

Paula Dudgeon: Dutton's been talking too long, they're telling me that. I can see that. and you have to be willing to say, okay, I'm going to be quiet now and we have to, we have to be engaged. I have to find where they are and we have to move on from there without losing the learning point. But also recognizing they're done with this.

Paula Dudgeon: We got to go on. I may not have gotten as far as I wanted to, but they're done. They're not, they're not taking anything in anymore.

Craig Randall: So, is it, do you think it's a combination of, glassy wandering eyes and movement? What do you, what do you, like, what are the, are there, do you find there's things you're looking for? Or do you just, it's, you've just been doing it so long you just vibe like, like, tell, tell me more about that piece.

Paula Dudgeon: I think at this point it probably is more, I just, just a vibe.

Craig Randall: Yeah. Ha

Paula Dudgeon: I, and I think With kindergartners and, and probably even maybe to a certain degree, some first graders, you also learn to recognize [00:15:00] some body language, you know, um, the other thing that I would say, I, I usually can say, okay, I've gone on too long is if I see that, oh, they're doodling a lot, you know, that what they're writing is not purposeful, I need to go on, you know, and I think that's also a really good indicator for me also when, when maybe they're ready for, for something higher level, and I've maybe presupposed that we need to stay on this, but when they're doodling, when they, when they filled out a whole chart and I'm still back in the first box and they're done, you know, those are the kinds of things that you also have to watch for, but it is a certain vibe.

Paula Dudgeon: You get a sense of, and every class is different, right?

Craig Randall: Isn't that the

Paula Dudgeon: have a better attention span. Um, some kids are not quite ready for that. And that evolves over the course of a year, obviously, too. So you have to kind of grow with them, stretch their, stretch their attention span a little bit in the beginning, feed it along the way, I think, and then [00:16:00] go from what they're telling me.

Craig Randall: Yeah, and we know this, that 12 months as a kindergartner is massive, and so you could end up with a bunch of late spring summer kids one year, and that changes the dynamics of your class enormously versus a bunch of late fall winter birthdays, right?

Paula Dudgeon: Yeah, absolutely. Huge, huge

Craig Randall: One of the, one of the other things, Paula, that, that, that when we were there is one, because you have them working, doing, working as they're doing it, but, but your sense of the formative assessment, the checks for understanding while they're doing that work, it's so thorough, you're, you're circulating around the room and you're looking at every single kid's work and so you know whether everybody gets it, which again, I, I don't see that as much as I want.

Craig Randall: I see. Hands raised and the same kids raised the answer. And then we assume they've got it where we don't know they have that. And, and so let's talk about just that checking piece and, [00:17:00] and your piece about that before we even talk about then how you provide the feedback to help them

Paula Dudgeon: sure. You know, I think I had a professor 30 plus years ago, you know, who was really big on on the idea that you have to be in a student space and you have to be in a student space, whether you're assessing, whether you're building a relationship, whether you're, you know, trying to cut down on behavior.

Paula Dudgeon: And so I feel like I feel like by moving around with them that I'm. Again, I'm getting a lot for my buck. It doesn't take anything for me to move between the rows where they're sitting the same as circulating at their tables. Um, but what I get out of that is, like you said, you know, I can see all of their work.

Paula Dudgeon: I know, okay, they got it. They didn't get it. I need to, I need to reteach this. I need to, you know, make a mental note. I need to check in with that student later. and I think the other piece is that then again, it puts me in their proximity. You know, if If I know that so and so and so and so really shouldn't [00:18:00] be sitting next to each other today, but I let it go.

Paula Dudgeon: Then I feel like I also have that responsibility to be in their proximity so that they know, oh yeah, she's paying attention. So I, I feel like I get the behavior things, I get the relationship things, um, and obviously, you know, most important in that instant is I'm getting that being, that ability to check their learning and see, and in the instant, and in the instant then correct what I can or re instruct or give a reminder, whatever the case is.

Craig Randall: That's so, I mean, that's one of the amazing things about proximity control is we haven't listed obviously as a behavior tool, but it proximity control is so much more than that. I mean, because it does allow you to, to be able to see everything that's going on at the same time. I love that your professor talked about being in their space in a, in a positive, non intrusive way, but in a, in a caring, supportive way.

Craig Randall: That's a. That's a

Paula Dudgeon: And that was a long time ago before it was a thing, so.

Craig Randall: [00:19:00] right. But that's, but so much stuff is old school stuff. That's like good practice. Like one of the things that I am proud about, about our forum is that all the areas that we're looking at, like learning targets, relationships, management, uh, cooperative learning, the tapping into the neuroscience and working memory, questioning, checks for understanding, descriptive feedback and differentiation.

Craig Randall: It doesn't matter. Like When hasn't that been part of teaching one month that ever be part of teaching is that and so having proximity control, which is just a fancy term for walking around and keeping an eye on things, but but it but it matters. It really does matter in terms of what What's going on?

Craig Randall: So let's add the second piece to that. So as you're doing that, you'd like not the behavior piece, but the academic piece, the learning piece, when that's going on, when you're seeing in the moment you're in, you look at every single kid, which is how we have to do it. You let's talk about what you're doing to [00:20:00] helping them grow, like in that moment with each kid, because it is different with each kid.

Craig Randall: Can you just. Go with that for a little bit.

Paula Dudgeon: Sure, the, the pieces that I try to watch for because of the, you know, the calendar. So obviously it's a lot of those math skills. It's a lot, but it's also sometimes a lot of, are they, are they able to follow some oral directions, you know? And so when they walk around and I've said, you know, we're in the second box, or if I walk around and I say, let's go in the, in the bottom row and a student's missing that. The, the advantage is obviously I can correct it or I can assist it, but it also then ensures that, I don't let a child get too far down the wrong road, you know, and then have to. have to, you know, erase that child's work, which is something I hate to do, or, or a child totally missed the directions, and so they're not even on the right page.

Paula Dudgeon: The closer and the faster I am to them, you know, I stop those things, and sometimes those are the things that, [00:21:00] especially for maybe a struggling learner, I don't want that to happen at all, but if, if it's going to happen, I want to be able to stop it. Um, and I think, especially, correct

Craig Randall: Get them on the right path, really, is maybe

Paula Dudgeon: they need that immediate feedback, you know. Um, and the other thing, I'm a real big believer with, with fine motor, which is a lot of what happens on the it's a lot of muscle memory. And in the course of my career, I would say, That's become a bigger and a bigger piece because kids don't come with fine motor.

Paula Dudgeon: Kids don't come with muscle memory or those types of school skills. So, I got to suck up every possible opportunity to correct a pencil grip or to help them make, you know, a correct number formation, which may sound like a minor thing, but I'm at the bottom of the heap. And if they can't make a five when they're with me, They can't make a five, you know, so [00:22:00] that to me that immediacy that feedback And those are the simple things but when they become successful at those things, you know Then we can move on to the next You know to the higher level learning then we can use those numbers that we can write in other math things or or writing Stories or whatever the case may be, you know a simple writing our numbers from left to right becomes a reading skill so the sooner I feel like the sooner I can correct those, adjust those, give a little bit of confidence for kids that maybe were struggling and now all of a sudden, you know, it's a beautiful three.

Paula Dudgeon: I told a student today, it was a beautiful round three, like a snowman. So I feel like when they have that, then I'm able to, to build for them. Otherwise, I'm spending way too much time correcting, and I'm not able to give any feedback in the immediacy if I'm not there. In the immediacy, in the, in that moment for them.

Paula Dudgeon: Yeah.

Craig Randall: There's so much there that's really good. I do remember now you're saying that there was a kid in the class that, [00:23:00] the day that we were in there, where, I think it was a three, and you made a comment about, which way do we make our three? Like it was a, like it was a preemptive comment before that kid had his, was writing to make sure that they didn't write the backwards three, which we know is really common.

Craig Randall: But what I'm hearing, Even more than the specifics of the feedback that, that you're talking about. What I'm hearing that resonates most deeply is the immediacy of making sure everybody's on the right path. Because if we let a kid even go Two, three, four minutes of doing something wrong. Well, that's two, three, four minutes of un teaching that I have to do, where if I can get you from the first time if you do it wrong, because that happens, of course, but, but if I'm, like, my eyes are on all of my kids and seeing it immediately, and I get you on that right path that much quicker, then, like, what a gift.

Craig Randall: to that kid it is, not just on their academic learning, but almost on their, on their, well being, esteem. I'm not sure that's quite the right [00:24:00] word, but I, I, but I think it, it, I think you know what I'm saying, right? It matters, especially for our struggling learners.

Paula Dudgeon: Right, I think it matters a great deal and I think, you know, when you, like you said, you know, if they're off the track for three, four minutes, I think it takes a lot more than three, four minutes to get them back on the track. You know, we all know that, we all know reteaching, we, we call it reteaching, but, but you are oftentimes you have to go back and you have to start from scratch.

Paula Dudgeon: You have to build from scratch. So reteaching is in four minutes in reverse. You know, I feel like reteaching, you could lose your career in reteaching if you don't get on top of it sooner. And I think that's so important, exactly like you said, for their well being, for their, for their emotional sense of, Yeah, I can do this.

Paula Dudgeon: Maybe it was hard. Ms. Dijon had to show me how to fix this, but, but now I can do this. And

Craig Randall: was immediate or close to immediate. I mean, they're not thinking like that, but we know that.

Paula Dudgeon: Right. And I [00:25:00] feel like I, I would have no way to prove this, but I feel like if you're there, then they're also going to be much more likely to ask for help because they're not, you know, they know I'm there, they know I'm going to, so, you know, they don't even necessarily have to raise their hand. They can look up at me if I'm moving and say, Ms.

Paula Dudgeon: Studgeon, how do I do this? Or Ms. Studgeon, I wrote in the wrong place. And that also, I think cuts down on that sense of, well, I had to ask for help again. You know, or I didn't know it, but everybody else knew it.

Craig Randall: that's a losing battle that we don't want to fight the

Paula Dudgeon: battle, you're right.

Craig Randall: immediacy of that feedback is so key, which means that that moving around and really, really paying attention to these kids, but also giving each kid a chance to play. Practice it even allows that.

Craig Randall: Where if we haven't even allowed that kid that chance to do that. So then just maybe tied to that just a little bit. Cause we're, we're closing in on our time here is, um, is then, but there's also the differentiated piece of, even though I have that, because I do know my students, like, like we talked a little bit about you put a certain [00:26:00] student, a certain day and in a spot, but it's, it's also a big part of that is who do I target first on that differentiated level, right?

Paula Dudgeon: I would absolutely agree because I think, you know, sometimes I think we get overwhelmed by that idea of differentiation. You know, we hear it at a,

Craig Randall: I know, I

Paula Dudgeon: professional development thing and we, Oh, it's another thing to do. Oh, it's another thing to keep track of. But I like to think of, and maybe it's more because of my grade level, but I, for me, that differentiation is also kind of that immediacy.

Paula Dudgeon: And today it. Today it might be, like you said, the student that I maybe put in the front that I really knew I wanted to pay attention to today, and tomorrow it might be somebody else because I've introduced a new school, new skill. to me, the differentiation, I have to be willing to at least are able to kind of think about where am I going with this?

Paula Dudgeon: What am I going to do with this? How am I going to help them? and then it is different for every kid. I have to find ways to differentiate.

Craig Randall: yeah, I think you say something really important because like [00:27:00] Tomlinson's godmother of differentiation and no one would doubt it's really good stuff But like I remember going to those trainings and I was like, ah, where do I start? And I felt paralyzed because it felt so so overwhelming and there's this guy named John McCarthy I wrote a book called so all can learn about differentiation and he really pointed to like the immediate intuitive differentiation that we do every single day in the moment and And all of a sudden when you realize you do that, then the rest of it doesn't seem quite so hard because like, Oh yeah, I'm already doing it.

Craig Randall: And, and all of it together matters, but there's just the little bits of it make a difference between that kid that might get a little lost in behind and being able to jump in right away.

Craig Randall: So we've, you've been teaching at that school for 29 years and when we talked a little bit about, about your observation experiences or, or not experiences as it were, and would you mind just sharing a little bit about some of that and maybe doing a little bit of comparison to like what your, I know it's only one experience so far, but it's pretty dramatically different with trust based.

Craig Randall: And [00:28:00] so do you mind just, yeah, Sharing out with with our listeners about that.

Paula Dudgeon: No, I would, yeah. I, I think, obviously, in 29 years, um, I've been observed at least 29 times, and, um, in some years, twice a year, and I would say, those observations have been, as different as you can imagine them to be. You know, they've gone from, you know, a 10 minute, we're gonna step in, we're gonna take note of, What was your topic and afterwards I want you to be able to tell me that the da da and you did great and sign This paper and you're you know, you've been observed you're done for the year, you know, yeah, you know check It's taking care for the administrator and I and I think administrators have done what they were taught to do what they knew

Craig Randall: no, I'm not blaming anybody. Exactly. We only knew one way before. Yeah.

Paula Dudgeon: Exactly. You know, I've had, observation years where we were told, that we should go observe someone else. And then the observation, you know, was to be more self reflective. Well, what were they doing that I could do? Or what were they doing that I like? You [00:29:00] know, a little bit more of broadening horizons.

Paula Dudgeon: most of my observations have been, you know, a pen and paper form, a little bit of a narrative. This is what she did. this is what happened. once in, in a blue moon, somebody will, has said, you know, is there anything you want me to watch for? Is there anything we should look for? Things that you're missing?

Paula Dudgeon: You know, are you calling on all students is often one of those things that, that people would say, yeah, watch for this. but certainly nothing. And, and I would say I've never had an observation that ever said, Let's work on this, you know, or here's an idea or here's what was missing. But the other side of that is is I've also never had an observation where I felt like it helped me to see Okay, what else could I try?

Paula Dudgeon: Where can I, where can I venture? You know, this is going well. So you're being, I'm being encouraged to try something that maybe I've never done before and that certainly was very much my experience. with a trust [00:30:00] based observation. Um, and I also think observations in my past, I'm not a person who tends to get anxious with an observation.

Paula Dudgeon: I, whatever reason, you know, it's just never been a big deal for me. But I always feel bad for people who get anxious about an observation, because I think that That doesn't help you. And I don't think it helps your rapport with your students on the day because I think it bleeds through even if we don't think so. So I think if there's a way to just take all of that sense of fear or apprehension or anxiety, whatever it is, um, I think that is already a step in the right direction and then to help people see here's what you did, here's where it falls into, you know, into a compendium of, of activities. I think that's, that's a gift because that's the only way we're all going to get better.

Paula Dudgeon: And every day we're going to get better.

Craig Randall: we're we're like what you're saying, then we're just in those nine areas of pedagogy, we're noticing what you did, which we [00:31:00] view as strengths, right? And we're sharing them out with you in a way that hopefully you're feeling appreciated. And, and even then when you're talking about like thinking about what to get better at, like, did we tell you to get better at anything? No, you're just, but because of the nature of the conversation where it's not defensive and then the specifics, this, we know that forms highly detailed, right? It just, it just, it has this weird power to make people to start thinking about their practice

Paula Dudgeon: and I think the other thing, Craig, about the form that only, It really came to me afterwards as I was kind of thinking about it, is I think also it helped me to also see that, that all of the things that I was doing, whether it was the areas of pedagogy or, or other things that I felt like I was, had a full package that I was, that I don't want to say it's sequential because that's not it, but that I was, but that I

Craig Randall: comprehensive

Paula Dudgeon: it's comprehensive and so it helped me.

Paula Dudgeon: To say, okay, these, [00:32:00] these are the things that, that are working now. How, what can I do to round out my package? What can I do to make sure that these, these areas still can be strengthened? and, and in the instant I hadn't thought about that, but afterwards I thought this really gives me a, a fuller picture.

Craig Randall: there's a certain point along the way, like after we've left teachers college. Like we're just doing it, and we're trying to get better. I don't doubt that, but maybe we're not thinking about it, and I'm not meaning this in a critical way, purposely about it in terms of our pedagogy, and then when we have a chance to go over it, and we're sharing strengths that you do do in that, I think it does make us think more purposefully In a positive way about it with a growth mindset.

Paula Dudgeon: Yeah, and I think also the idea that, like you said, we learned that when we were in college you get started in the, in your profession, you get started in your career and you don't ever really have professional development that necessarily goes back to those, what I would [00:33:00] say are those fundamental things, um, you may occasionally get something, but, you know, , any teacher will tell you.

Paula Dudgeon: A lot of our professional development hits on what's the new thing from, you know, from the state? What's the new trend? What's the, so we don't ever get to go back and reflect on those other things. And I think that's where this also helps to go back to what I would consider the real fundamentals of what make your classroom tick.

Paula Dudgeon: Mm-hmm

Craig Randall: You know, the two main studies that have come out, we're over on time, so I'm going to be quick, but the two main studies that have come out, on teacher observation, besides saying that they don't improve teaching and learning, have said, we've been saying you have to connect observation directly to professional development, and it never happens.

Craig Randall: in year two, which we're not there yet, those nine areas of pedagogy, and we It's really seven because we connect behavior and relationships and checks for understanding, like you'll have in house leaders between the diocese teaching monthly PD on those and you get to choose which one you want to work on as a teacher.

Craig Randall: So we allow, we really [00:34:00] feel like we put our money where our mouth is in providing teacher autonomy and connecting it directly to it.

Craig Randall: Paula, there might be listeners out there when if there are, I sure hope, I sure encourage them to reach out to you because I think there's things to be learned from you.

Craig Randall: So would you feel comfortable? Sharing an email address that if somebody wanted to reach out with you, they could.

Paula Dudgeon: Sure, absolutely. So the email address would be pdudgen, so it's p d u d g e o n at holy redeemer. com. It

Craig Randall: That is awesome. And those will be in the, in the show notes for people that are listening to Paula. Thank you so, so much for joining me today. It was a pleasure to get to watch you and it's been great to get to talk to you afterwards as well. So much gratitude.

Paula Dudgeon: Oh, you're very welcome.

Craig Randall: Thanks so much.

Paula Dudgeon: Yep, thank you.

Outro: Thank you for listening to 20 Minutes of [00:35:00] Teaching Brilliance. If the show resonated with you, you can help other teachers by liking, sharing, and subscribing. More importantly, if you don't like the way you're being evaluated, don't like being nitpicked and scored, then check out Trust Based Observations at TrustBased.com, where we know the path to growth is through safe spaces for risk taking. Tell your principal about it, and change your school's observations to a model of trust and support, and join the thousands of teachers who now experience the joy of observations the way they're meant to be done.