20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance (On the Road with Trust-Based Observations)

Ted (Intro Outro Man): Welcome to 20 minutes of teaching brilliance on the road with Trust Based Observations.

Every week while training school leaders, Craig Randall, the developer of Trust Based Observations, witnesses brilliant teaching during their 20 minute observations.

Wanting to share that teaching brilliance with others, we talk shop with those teachers, learning what they do that is so impactful.

We hope you enjoy.

Craig: Hi, and welcome to another edition of 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance on the Road with trust-based observations.

A few weeks ago, I was in my home state of Washington in Soap Lake Washington.

By the way, there's a brand new novel that just came out called Midnight on Soap Lake.

By a guy named Matt Sullivan.

It just came out on April 15th for all our listeners out there and for you too, Marcy.

And it's a murder mystery.

And Matt was a teacher at Big Bend Community College and I, Matt and I were dear, dear friends, like 20 some years ago when I worked at Big Bend, just up the road.

And he lived in Soap Lake in Alfreda.

And so he used that for the newest setting of Of his new novel.

So anyway, I was up there, saw some amazing teaching in, uh, in a town that's having some hard times.

And, and, so one of the teachers I saw was Marcy McLean, and I was so, so impressed with Marcy.

And so what I'd like to do now is Marcy, have you introduce yourself to the audience, tell them a bit about yourself, maybe how you got into teaching, what you're teaching right now, and whatever else you want to share.

I.

Marcee: Well, thank you.

I am Marcy McLean.

I get to teach, fifth grade general Ed at Soap Lake Elementary.

this is my third year of teaching out here.

I was very blessed to come into teaching a little bit later.

I was a, my husband's career allowed me the opportunity to stay home and raise our children, which provided me the time and opportunity to homeschool my oldest son.

I. And I fell in love with teaching when I came outta high school.

And, you know, what do I wanna do as an adult?

Um, teaching was not on my radar.

It was not something I wanted to do.

but through working with my son, I fell in love with it.

I fell in love with kind of the creative things I could do, you know, at Christmas teaching poetry through Christmas carols or, you know, finding a book that he wanted to read and really diving into it and.

Sparking that interest in him and seeing the different ways that his really awesome brain saw things.

I was intrigued and it led me down a path of, you know, starting to volunteer in my other children's school classrooms.

And then I was a para, went and did my master's degree, and I have landed at Soap Lake and.

I have grown so much as a person and I am so excited that I, that the students I get to work with grow me as a person.

They share so much of their awesomeness with me, that I'm really glad that this is where my path in life has led me.

Craig: I, I, I love that there's some things that I particularly love, that you, uh, one, creativity and, and, and as part of creativity, it, it's, it's allowing you to be creative, but also I. that students, when we can tap into their interest, that's gonna pull them into the learning so much more.

And, and, and which is a form of differentiation, right?

And, and so being aware of that allows you to be creative.

So I love that you're, you just, well, probably because of your son, you realize that being able to tap into is gonna get, you're gonna get more out of them and make them more engaged in the learning.

Marcee: Right?

Craig: So then the I, the other things that I love that you said is they grow me and I just think that, I'll tell you when I'm on the road doing trust-based observations, I learn something from the people I'm training every week that make trust-based observations better.

And so I love hearing a teacher say basically the same thing.

My kids help me to become better at what I'm gonna do.

And then you also reference their awesomeness, which really talks to.

The care that you have for kids, which is a great segue into the first thing that I wanted to talk about, which is really when I was in that class, like I think your relationships in classroom management, which we kind of bunched together.

They're separate, but they're so connected.

What was super, super strong, I think.

The way you, the kids felt, heard, the way they felt valued, the way that high expectations were built in, and then the way that you've, you've built in classroom management and procedures and routines and everything to make the class run so smoothly.

Because one, we were in there, we'll get there later.

You spent a lot of time with two or three students in there, and the rest of the students, I mean, you would do quick little checks around, but their self-regulation was super strong.

That doesn't happen on its own, so.

With that prelude, would you want to talk about the importance of relationships and behavior management in in your practice?

Because I think it was really impressive.

Marcee: For me, building relationships with my students is one of the most important cornerstones of my classroom.

Learning is hard.

It's scary.

When I am introducing something new, I'm asking 'em to go to kind of a vulnerable spot where they can have, feelings of doubt about themselves or, you know, can I do it in any of those feelings?

And.

It's really important for me as soon as possible to start building the trust of this is a safe place.

and I want you to know that you're not gonna get everything the first time, but you will get it.

We're gonna work together to get there.

one of the things at times I make mistakes, sometimes on purpose, sometimes not on purpose.

and I like it when my students say, Mrs. McLean.

This number is wrong, or I will spell a word incorrectly and I will model that.

When we are writing writing, we put the little SP above it to remind us, oh, this doesn't feel right.

This is how we self edit.

it's building that, showing that it's okay to make a mistake.

it is a safe place that I want you to raise your hand and say.

I need more help.

I don't understand.

I do frequent check-ins with not only the number, thumbs up, thumbs down, one-on-ones going and checking.

It's just really reinforcing that this is a safe place.

We spend, almost two days at the beginning of the year talking about a respect agreement, and we reference it a lot.

just how we are a team, how we build each other up, how we grow.

And really, that was a, a huge motivator in me doing it because personally, when I'm trying to learn something new, I feel scared, I feel vulnerable, and I want to teach them the skills that they can do hard things, but sometimes they're gonna have to work a little harder at it, and it's okay if they don't get it the first time.

Craig: Oh my gosh.

You were just music to my ears.

you know why?

Marcee: Why.

Craig: Because every single thing or damn near every single thing that you just said on there is exactly what I want us.

As school leaders to do with our teachers because our human experience is exactly the same as a student's experience.

And the way, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go off right now.

The way that we do observations right now with rating of pedagogy creates a deficit mindset, and it makes teachers more vulnerable and more scared and more afraid to take chances.

And everything that you just said, it's, it's hard.

It's scary.

Just you can say students and you can say teachers and tell me it's not the exact same thing.

It's a vulnerable spot.

You can have self-doubt.

It's important that we build trust so we have safe places.

So we have a sense of that we'll work together to get there.

That mistakes are okay, that we can have check-ins, that it's about trust.

like it's not the way it works and everything.

You said, like the symmetry is.

The hypocrisy.

Sorry, I'm going off and you should be talking, but I can't help

Marcee: It's okay.

Craig: The hypocrisy between the way that we expect teachers to give feedback to students, which is exactly what you said it should be.

Just everything was like textbook a, a, a, not that I want to grade that stuff.

But anyway, you got my point.

And, and the way that we traditionally give feedback to teachers on these rated scales that range from you suck to you're awesome.

Like it's astounding and it's, it's embarrassing.

Just hearing you say that, it's just like, oh my gosh, you're exactly what we want to do.

We wanna be doing the same thing as school leaders, as we want teacher with teachers that we want teachers to be doing with students.

So thank you so, so much for saying that.

Okay.

move forward after my little rant.

Marcee: Okay.

Craig: Your use of questions is incredibly strong.

They just push students.

To find answers on their own.

And, and not that it's not okay to give an answer once in a while or to give an instruction again to give a student, because of course that's necessary.

But the more our questions can help the students to find the answers on their own, that coaching style of descriptive progress, feedback.

But we're, and we're gonna get to that in a minute, but your use of questions and the type of questions you're asked, just talk to me about questions and your use of questions.

What you plan ahead, what you do in the moment, how you come up with questions, what guides you with questions.

I just want to hear, because it was.

The question you use for push, push, push the kids further and further and further at the very edge of what they can do.

Marcee: Sometimes I, I do both.

I do come in when I'm doing my lesson planning with some questions that I would like to ask because you know, when you have 20 students talking to you.

Things fly outta your mind when you, and then you afterwards you're like, oh my, I wish I had said that.

But then a lot of times it is when a student asks something, I wanna take it to the next level.

I encourage my students to ask questions, and I tell them, if you ask a question, you are being brave, because I guarantee that at least one other person in our classroom doesn't understand either.

And by you being brave enough to ask that question, you are being a leader in helping them learn.

I. as far as me asking them questions and then leading them, I really strive to get them to think for themselves.

And that's not only a math skill or a writing skill, it's a life skill to think for themselves, to advocate for themselves.

What am I thinking?

Just to be able to do those things.

And it started with the lesson that we were doing.

We were writing an informational essay and it was taking that, I wanted their writing to go deeper.

one student was writing about fancy car and they just wanted to give a surface.

And then I was really excited.

I got to talk to them and take them.

Oh, wow.

I didn't know this one.

Detail.

Let's make a note because as the pers as the reader, it was me that was going to be grading it.

I don't know that answer.

I want you to teach me something new.

So it was, my questions were kind of just based on how can I get you to think more because Mrs. McLean is not going to be there your entire life to answer and ask all your questions for you.

You need to develop the skills to do that, not only academically but in your life as you grow as a person.

Craig: I am just loving so much everything that I'm hearing, one.

We have to plan ahead.

We can't just rely on questions.

And we always say on, on the levels of questions that we have.

It's an inverted bloom's taxonomy for, people that are listening out there.

By the way, anybody that's listening who wants to see the form, you can go to the trust base observations website and there's a place that says Form where you can click to get that.

We always say on that.

So there the seven levels are recognized, understand, apply, analyze, evaluate, synthesize, and create.

And we say up through analyze, we can come up with those off the top of our head really.

But when we get to the questions that are above that, really, we have to plan ahead to do that.

And I, I'd never heard it with that description, but, but even if I was really strong, sometimes things fly outta my head, so I have to write it so I remember what they are too.

and then.

Like helping them get to the next steps is your underlying driver for your questions.

it's it's whole and it's differentiated both.

Right.

And it sounds like what you're saying, if I, correct me if I'm wrong, is it's a combination, the questions are whole combinations and then the questions are for you based on where I'm at with you.

Is that right?

Marcee: Correct.

Craig: And then sending a message that asking not just my asking questions, but your asking questions is super important.

You're brave when you do it because it's gonna help other students as well.

But it's also part of getting them to think for themselves is asking questions.

And you're saying that getting them to think for themselves, the pushing them for independence, for adult success.

Like that's what I'm hearing over and over and over with these questions.

Marcee: yes.

They're only in my classroom for a small snippet of time, and for me, my goal is to get them ready for.

The next teacher that gets to have the, the opportunity to work with them so that they can add their skills and their academic, you know, tools to that student's toolbox.

And we just, as we move them up through high school, whatever, teachers, we're just all layering all those things.

And for my part is I want them to start because as fifth graders, to start having some of those higher level ability to think.

More of the deeper, instead of just the surface, start digging a little bit deeper because that's what they're gonna need as they move forward.

Craig: I agree with you and I'm gonna push back a little bit at the same time, so I, I agree you're getting them ready for the next teacher, and that's important.

I think way more than that your driver is getting them ready to be successful adults.

Part of that means I'm getting them ready for the teacher, because what you're talking about isn't really, it's a gift for the next teacher that you've done that, but what you're doing is more than that.

So I just want to give you credit for more than just getting ready for the next teacher.

Marcee: Well, thank you.

Craig: so let's move on more formally to checking for understanding and descriptive progress feedback and differentiation in this instance, because they are all tied together, but I think from the day we were in your class, they were particularly tied together.

So we're in there, you're doing informational writing and as part of differentiation, you've got extended activities because of kids.

Naturally or different places so that if you're at this point with your rough draft and you can start on blah, blah, blah, I don't remember what that was, but it doesn't matter right now.

and even the classroom management ties into this because you're in proximity control as you're doing quick checks in between when you're working with kids, but that day you spent the majority of that time and it was, it was a heavy work time

Marcee: Mm-hmm.

Craig: with two to three kids.

And, and look with checks for understanding.

You were giving quick checks for everybody, but you also already knew where your kids were because I think what you're doing the days before and everything and exit tickets or whatever you're doing, I'm not sure, but I know
you're doing stuff to have a sense, but to me, you knew that if these two or three kids didn't get extended help, which means I'm not spending a minute or two, you are spending like up to six or seven minutes with these kids.

They're not gonna get there.

Marcee: Correct.

Craig: So let's talk about that and then let's talk about how you're working with each of those students and really, uh, like I saw a combination of sometimes you just had to give a kid an answer.

Sometimes you had to give like little instruction again to guide them along the way.

And often you had to use questions like we already talked about to push them there.

So I just want you to talk about the combination of all of that.

Marcee: I think it was dependent upon the student I was working with.

I knew where my students were.

I knew where all 20 of them were in the writing process so that I could say, this student, you need to do, Your rough draft.

This one you're still researching.

And I had gone through and every day I kept a list so that I knew, because writing is one of those things.

If you get behind, it's just snowplows and it backlogs and all of a sudden you're just, okay, I'm turning in three sentences because everything else backlogged on me.

one of the students that I worked with, he was doing a great job of.

Doing his research, but he was doing surface.

You know, here's the car, it was built in this day.

It was built by this company, surface things.

And so when we talked about the deeper questions, I wanted him to take me to some of those new things where all of a sudden spontaneously, he tells me about a, a car that there were only a certain number of them being made.

And I'm like, that is so cool.

Now let's, well, I didn't know that now.

Go figure out.

Take that deeper.

Teach me more about it because I already know that there's a car that's a Ford.

I already know that you know it.

Ha, it was this fast sports car.

Tell me the, and other, and it was really awesome sitting there talking to him and him going, oh, well I could tell you about this.

Yes you could.

Growing those sorts of conversations.

Craig: So with, with the boy, with the cars.

So what I'm hearing you was, is again, you're showing interest in what they're doing and they were already getting to choose what they did.

So the student interest is there, but you're showing interest in enthusiasm.

Like I didn't know that with genuine enthusiasm for them, but, but then you're, the questions you're using.

Are pushing him to get more, more depth, more depth, more depth, more depth.

And that's, and he's finding that on his own.

And then you did something then part of instructional, and that would go in the first paragraph where you go here or that would go, like you mixed it all together with, which is what each student needs.

And it was, it was a beautiful blending of all of that.

So I just wanted to add all that, because those are things I saw that day we were in there.

Marcee: Well, thank you.

And it really, from that conversation, he was, he is a reluctant writer.

And from that, oh, I was able to teach Mrs. McLean something new.

He kind of got invigorated a little bit and got more, he, he went searching.

For, I think more pieces of trivia sort of things so that he could take it to that.

I am an expert.

I'm teaching Mrs. McLean something new, which was really awesome and fun to watch.

Craig: And that ability to teach others and feel like you can teach others is so powerful.

One, on an esteem level, right?

And making you build more confident.

But two, like on, on, on, on the form at the bottom, we've got the learning principles pyramid with the eight ways that we help.

Students to learn.

And the area that has the deepest retention of learning and the most depth of learning is teaching others.

So you just said he's becoming an expert in teaching others, Mrs. McLean and or the rest of the class in that too.

So that's all really, really powerful stuff.

Okay.

Let's jump onto the next, the next one you were talking about.

Marcee: Okay.

Well, the other student that we were talking about is a low reader.

for him, he was doing it on the T-Rex and the content was high.

He was having challenges with scavenger predator, those basic vocabulary words that we do associate with dinosaurs.

In our discussion for him to relate to words that are topic, specific vocabulary, we did have to kind of go down to a scavenger, well, if you were a scavenger, this is what it would look like.

You know, if, an animal that is a predator, this is what they would do.

He's a very visual.

Break it down, think outside of his head, sort of a learner.

So we did have to spend a lot of time as we were going through the text saying, okay, here's a word.

Let's start breaking down that vocabulary so that you can apply it to what we were supposed to be doing.

Craig: I just wanna go back just a little bit just for the listener, because I, I know because I was in there, but really, what, what, what you're saying, just to add a little more clarity, is that as part of the research that he was doing, he was writing, but he was also doing research at the same time.

And what you realized right then is that if I don't actually.

Slash two with him on this.

We're not gonna get any more work out of him because it, it's at the very peak of hi, of his, of his reading ability and understanding.

So I just wanna add that context that as part of when you were, even though it was a writing thing, you were actually reading with him because on a differentiated level, that's what you knew he needed.

Now please keep going.

Marcee: Yeah.

Correct.

That is, that is definitely what he needed to progress in his writing task.

And to clarify, the students got to pick their own topic because it was informative.

Their job was to be the expert and in writing, teach me something new.

And this is what the student, that was his interest.

but the differentiation had to happen that he needed more reading support and.

Discussion support about what that needed so that he could transfer that into his note taking.

Rough draft and then final draft writing.

Craig: So just on the differentiation piece we're talking about for everybody.

One, you're letting them tap into interest by, and two learner preferences being involved in there.

Three, there's a personalization piece where each you are understanding that kid and what that kid's need, and so there's that knowledge of an individual student.

On so many levels, whether it's a kid in his interest in cars or or whether it's a kid in T-Rex and I know his level of reading, so I have to work with him at the level that he's at.

And so when you were doing, like then, once you got to the feedback piece with him, beyond just the reading, to get him further along in that, do you wanna talk a little bit about that too?

Marcee: we just had lots of discussions and he needed to have help.

Once again, differentiation of how can we put this into words and.

We would formulate sentences together, you know, looking back at, okay, we just read this paragraph, what sentences can we create from the idea that we just read about?

And, there was a lot where he was talking to me.

I was writing, I was speaking back to him saying, is this what I hear you saying?

That sort of dialogue because, while things were in his head, I really do believe that he was understanding, putting those words into sentences that work together into paragraphs was challenging him.

so the feedback was just, we had this conversation, we read it, we talked about it.

We had a dialogue back and forth to then put.

Thoughts to sentences, to paragraphs, and then into our informative essay format.

Craig: Yeah.

And sometimes that means we have to, we do before you.

You do.

Right.

And, that's where he was at that point, especially when we had the.

Reading part that was already stretching him to that as well.

Marcee: Exactly.

Craig: It was great.

Great stuff.

So the last thing before we, before we finish, is I, is trust based observations is new to Soap Lake and um, you just beforehand, you kind of talked about a little bit before we were on air about the impact.

So I just want you like, tell me about your thoughts about trust-based observations and, and your experience with it.

Marcee: As a teacher, I hear observation, and of course I am like, oh my gosh, are my kids gonna behave?

Am I gonna say the right thing?

Am I going to do the wrong thing?

You know, there's, there's kind of an anxiety about it for myself.

and when you guys came in, it was so relaxed.

I didn't feel like there was an eagle eye on me.

Uh, judging.

I really liked how you guys interacted with my students.

You talked to them.

I just didn't feel like the eyes were all on me.

You guys engaged with my students and then when I got to go talk with you, in the observation review, it was so relaxing and so positive, and I did, I walked in nervous and

Craig: Did I lead that one or did one of the other trainees lead that?

Marcee: you were there, and then my principal was there

Craig: Was she the one?

She led it though, I think.

Right.

Okay.

Okay.

Just, yeah.

Marcee: it was calming and it was positive.

all the different forms and the, what you heard, the sentences, the 18 minutes of being on instructional time,

Craig: 18 minutes in, uh, what we call the power trio, where it's that active, active learning.

Marcee: it was a great visual for me to see and I walked out feeling good, feeling heard, feeling seen.

I felt like my students had been seen and heard I mean, really, I get to see their greatness every day and it was awesome that you guys got to see their greatness and you inter interacted with them and you got to see what they were learning and.

partaking in instead of just normal teaching and whatever observation I felt that my students grew, but I grew as a teacher as well.

Craig: I am glad.

Well, and your greatness too.

And, and then just when you were talking about the visual nature, what you're talking about is the observation template we have.

It's very different than, uh, for those that are familiar with like a traditional Danielson, Marzano or self ID type template where it's just words.

Uh, and, and the ratings one, we don't rate pedagogy.

'cause research says that that inhibits trust what we were talking about at the beginning.

But two, it's very visual in nature with, uh, whether there's some pyramids in there, but even just the parts that aren't the pyramid, when that rating's not there.

correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it causes you in a positive way to self-reflect without threat.

I don't know.

I mean, you tell me.

Maybe I don't know.

Marcee: ex Exactly.

I agree with that a hundred percent.

But like when you're talking about the, the pyramid and its color, we get.

when we are working and we're growing and everything, we have pyramids of blooms and everything else, but when you have on here, you asked this question and this is where it fell onto the pyramid.

That helped me see, okay, I met that goal, because sometimes I don't realize if I did or did not, and it was a great visual.

For, okay, I achieved this one.

My next goal is to aim for this part or whatever, because it is so colorful and visual for somebody like me that is a visual learner.

it just was engaging.

It gave me something to reflect back on for my own growth as a teacher.

Craig: So I basically, the details, the, the details of the evidence that's captured can be insightful for you, and it actually encourage you to want to even push yourself even forward because of the, the visual nature of it, along with obviously that it doesn't feel threatening, because if that part was there, you wouldn't feel that.

Safety to go ahead and look at, oh, how can I improve?

'cause it doesn't work that way.

Marcee: I agree a hundred percent.

Craig: Thank you Marcy, for sharing that.

I appreciate that.

I think there'll be people that might wanna reach out and, and learn from you.

And so if they do, would you please be willing to share your professional contact information so they can reach out.

Marcee: Absolutely.

My email is M-C-L-A-I-N at s ls C-H-O-O-L s.org.

Craig: M-M-C-L-A-I-N at sls, well, HCHO, ssl, so lake schools, basically sl schools.org and uh, great.

Thank you so much.

I really, really appreciate that.

Marcy, it has been an absolute pleasure.

It was an absolute pleasure watching you work that day.

It was a pleasure having a reflective conversation.

It was even more of a pleasure getting to talk to you now.

So thanks so much for being on the podcast.

I really appreciate it.

Marcee: Oh, this was wonderful.

Thank you for including me.

Craig: Thanks.

Have a great day.

Ted (Intro Outro Man): Thank you for listening to 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance.

If the show resonated with you, you can help other teachers by liking, sharing, and subscribing.

More importantly, if you don't like the way you're being evaluated, don't like being nitpicked and scored, then check out Trust Based Observations at TrustBased.