20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance (On the Road with Trust-Based Observations)

Amanda Jelen
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[00:00:02] Intro: Welcome to 20 minutes of teaching brilliance on the road with Trust Based Observations. Every week while training school leaders, Craig Randall, the developer of Trust Based Observations, witnesses brilliant teaching during their 20 minute observations. Wanting to share that teaching brilliance with others, we talk shop with those teachers, learning what they do that is so impactful. We hope you enjoy.

[00:00:25] Craig Randall: Hi, and welcome to another edition of 20 minutes of teaching brilliance on the road with trust based observations as listeners of this season. No, I've been spending time in the most rural Catholic diocese in the whole country. So I've been told. New Ulm Diocese in Southwest Minnesota, training nine Catholic schools.

[00:00:50] Craig Randall: And today I have with me Amanda Gellin and by the way, and Amanda and I were talking right before the podcast and I was there right before Thanksgiving and apparently I just beat. So I'm very relieved to have missed that. So with that, Amanda, would you mind introducing yourself to the audience and just telling them a bit about yourself, your job, what you teach, where you teach, maybe how you got to where you're at in your career, maybe why you wanted to be a teacher, whatever you want to tell us.

[00:01:17] Craig Randall: Who

[00:01:17] Amanda Jelen: Sure. Well, first of all, thank you so much for this honor to be on your podcast. It's really exciting. I currently teach in Marshall, Minnesota. I teach third grade here. This is my 13th year of teaching. I started at Holy Redeemer here in Marshall. And I taught fourth grade for three years. And then, you know, you check all the boxes, you get your masters, you do the pay bump, do all that.

[00:01:41] Amanda Jelen: And so I spent ten years in the public school setting. And I just wasn't getting my cup filled. As far as teaching went and the longer that I spent in the public school system, I just started to feel drained and like I just wasn't loving teaching as much. So last year, I decided to make a switch and I returned to Holy Redeemer and I'm still teaching third grade.

[00:02:08] Amanda Jelen: So this is my 11th year or my 10th year teaching and my 10th year of teaching third grade as well. So. It's probably my favorite grade. They still think I'm cool and they still think I'm the funniest person ever. So I love that we get to laugh

[00:02:23] Craig Randall: doesn't like that?

[00:02:25] Amanda Jelen: right? It's because my family sometimes doesn't think I'm funny.

[00:02:27] Amanda Jelen: So I'm glad that I have 13 little ones who do.

[00:02:31] Amanda Jelen: Yeah.

[00:02:33] Craig Randall: super. I thanks so much, Amanda. I think anybody that's been in school, particularly. public schools post COVID knows how much more challenging it became, how much more challenging behavioral, how much challenging, how challenging it was doing online learning or the combination of online learning and back and forth, whatever that might've been depending on your state.

[00:02:51] Craig Randall: But then also when kids were out of school for so long, the challenges behaviorally that I don't want to say a direct result of that, but we're on some level a result of that where I think particularly maybe kids where school is a safe place they miss that and then there's just an escalation of behaviors.

[00:03:13] Craig Randall: Whatever the reasons are, it became much, much harder to teach. And so,

[00:03:17] Amanda Jelen: that. And I also think parents were just kind of in survival mode. And so we just. Kind of let our kids do whatever we could because a lot of us were still working at home, too.

[00:03:28] Craig Randall: And how do you balance all that? Yeah it's complicated and easy and I'm not saying it's anybody's fault. I'm just saying it's harder. Yeah, for sure. So the day that we were in there, it was so, so fun for me to watch. I think Gosh, I think like your organization and your planning were so clear, your pacing was so clear, your, like your formative assessment, descriptive progress feedback, and then differentiation, all of that was like just blew me away.

[00:03:54] Craig Randall: It was like the combination of all of it really together, like just all around, like, this is just solid. With that let's just talk about a key piece of teaching that, that anybody that teaches, I hope, knows is important, is that the relationships piece, the teacher student relationships piece, and then closely tied with that, interlinked with that, I think, is classroom and student behavior management, and that class, which is almost not just The behavior management, it's about things like making my lessons engaging, making it so kids are enjoying learning and, anyway, all of that was so present in your class.

[00:04:38] Craig Randall: Would you just talk about that? Talk about the specifics of what you do to make that so successful in your class, please?

[00:04:47] Amanda Jelen: Sure, absolutely. I think that building the relationships is probably the most important part to me as far as teaching goes. You know, at the end of the day when my students leave my classroom, I just want them to be good people. I just want them to go out in the world, make a difference. If they didn't learn anything from me all year, well, you know, that's another problem.

[00:05:08] Amanda Jelen: But as long as they go out and they know that they feel, they felt loved and they felt safe the entire school year, then I've made a difference.

[00:05:16] Craig Randall: And I'm just going to add to that, Amanda I know in no way whatsoever you saying the your top job along with that isn't to help them learn. It's for sure to make them learn. And I just want to be explicitly clear that. We all know when you're saying that, you're not meaning at the cost of learning.

[00:05:30] Amanda Jelen: right, right, of course. I try to spend as much time as I can at the beginning of the year building those relationships. I know a lot of people jump right into their curriculum that second week, but I try to spend a solid two weeks just really building those relationships with my kids because the more that we build that classroom family, that atmosphere of feeling safe and feeling trusted the more buy in I'm going to get from them in the long run and the more they're going to want to learn and do their best in their learning and take ownership of their learning.

[00:06:01] Amanda Jelen: So.

[00:06:03] Craig Randall: So, I know for some people that can be a controversial thing, spending time at the beginning of the year doing that at the cost of doing academics. I'm not saying, and I don't think there is one particular right answer. I think there's, it could be all that. It could be all the academic. It could be a combination of it.

[00:06:19] Craig Randall: And I do it all year. And it's, I don't think there's a definitive right answer to that. But I think What matters maybe most is that we all know it matters to build relationships. How are we building relationships? I'm all about the how can you talk to me about some of the strategies that you use or what you do?

[00:06:38] Craig Randall: to build those relationships

[00:06:40] Amanda Jelen: Sure. Yep. I take Really great pride in getting to know them as a student outside of school. So I want to know about their family. I want to know about their interests, what extracurriculars are they in? What do they do when they go home? I attend their. extracurricular activities when it works in my schedule.

[00:07:00] Amanda Jelen: So we've, I drag my family to football games and hockey games and dance competitions. And just so that they know that I care about them outside of the classroom. And that I'm a person outside of the classroom too. I just find that they really value the time and energy that I put into them, both in the classroom and outside the classroom.

[00:07:21] Amanda Jelen: So in turn, I get a mutual respect back from them.

[00:07:25] Craig Randall: So when you're going to see them in the outside activism for sure that takes a lot of time and effort and especially like you've got two little ones, a four and a six year old. And so I've got two questions. One, how do you manage that piece when you've, I mean, maybe you're just bringing them with them, like you said, but maybe there's more to it than that.

[00:07:48] Craig Randall: But then two, you talked about getting to know them. You don't know there's games outside until you know them. So what are you doing in class to get to know each one of them?

[00:07:59] Amanda Jelen: Sure well, my kids usually do get to come with me to those events and I think it's important for them to see that You know, mom wants to be a part of these kids lives, too, and that might mean that we go to a hockey game on a Saturday for a couple hours. And it also exposes my kids to extracurriculars, too, so, you know, maybe there's an interest that we wouldn't know that they would have if we hadn't gone and sat there, so.

[00:08:24] Amanda Jelen: Plus there's always playgrounds at the football games and stuff that they get to play with, too. And as far as

[00:08:30] Craig Randall: take the kids. I'm watching the game.

[00:08:32] Amanda Jelen: Yeah, you know, sometimes my husband will come with too. And he tends to get the brunt of having to take care of the kids, but he doesn't mind. He's very supportive, so. As far as getting to know my kids I spend a lot of time just in small groups having conversations with them.

[00:08:48] Amanda Jelen: Every Monday I have coffee with Mrs. Gellin. We don't actually have coffee, but I make them hot cocoa and we just sit and we just chat. How was your weekend? What did you do? You know, what do you want to talk about? And they don't have any problem filling that 20 minutes of time. Besides that we do lunch with the teachers.

[00:09:07] Amanda Jelen: So, I'll sit and get to know them through that. But I also spend a lot of time just sitting back and listening to their conversations.

[00:09:15] Craig Randall: With each other.

[00:09:16] Amanda Jelen: What I hear them talking about, then I'll join in like, Oh, tell me more about that. Or what do you mean by that? And then that's how I get to learn them a lot more when I hear them talking to each other.

[00:09:26] Craig Randall: Those are but those are three really concrete strategies is coffee with Mrs. Jelen. Lunch. I'm assuming you have lunch with one or two of them at a time and then two just. Just listening and then you find that will come in particularly good use when you have teenagers And they don't want to talk to you anymore But they're in the backseat with their friends and they forget you're in the car and you hear all kinds of things including things You don't want to hear so this

[00:09:52] Amanda Jelen: Good to know.

[00:09:53] Craig Randall: you pay dividends for years and years to come So let's talk about let's talk about behavior management Or all the things that factor into behavior, or into, which include making a class engaging.

[00:10:08] Craig Randall: I think maybe that's particularly why I want to talk about it with you, because it's not really like I'm, I saw you doing a bunch of scolding or anything like that, but you were, but your class functioned on a really high level. I think because of the actions that you take that factor into the kids being interested in non tasks.

[00:10:26] Amanda Jelen: Sure. Well, one of the things that I do when I'm getting ready for my lessons, preparing for my lessons, is try to do a backwards design. Okay, so where do I want my kids, and how am I going to get them there? And I look at what the curriculum has provided, and then, like, okay, how am I going to supplement this or change this?

[00:10:42] Amanda Jelen: Because while it's great material, It's not always engaging to my kids, so a lot of the times I'll, you know, I'll teach the lesson from the curriculum, and then the second day, if I don't feel like they've got it, I'll create my own lesson, and that's where I'll put my own little tweaks in it. So, whether that's putting in a couple slides where it's something that they like, or I know that we can kind of banter with, or putting that Catholic identity in there too is really important to me. I just try to make sure that it's engaging to them because I know that creates that buy in for them in their learning and keeps them engaged through the whole thing. You know, they're, I find when they know that I've put in like, for example, the Packers and the Vikings, when I put that in there, then they're looking for the next one.

[00:11:28] Amanda Jelen: What's she going to do next? And boom, it's a Catholic identity. Totally throws them for a loop. So.

[00:11:35] Craig Randall: So personalization and engagement like they're just like that. It's a through line running what I'm hearing you say. It's a through line constantly as you're thinking about. Your lessons as you're thinking about class is like, how do I personalize it to pull them in like student interests like we think about that with differentiation, which is I think what I'm hearing you say, but then also like, how do I make it so it's fun for them basically learn what sort of learning is fun, or at least it's interesting to them.

[00:12:06] Amanda Jelen: Yes. Yep. I, you know, there's so many kids who go home and they play video games or, you know, they do their preferred activities. Well, I want them to come to school and I want school to be a preferred activity for them too. So if I can make cause and effect fun for them for 10 minutes of my day, then I'm going to put my effort into doing that for

[00:12:24] Craig Randall: yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Let's jump into, I think, checks for understanding that formative assessment piece because I, I think that's so important. And we were talking a little bit before we went on air about. About like what I see when I'm on the road and I see formative assessment all the time But I'm not always seeing it where we're checking on making sure we have an understanding whether every kid is understanding or not and then obviously what we do in response to that with the feedback and so like I'm a huge fan of the mini whiteboards because everybody is getting to do something and it gives us that opportunity in the moment know Whether they're getting or not We just talk about those two areas and if you want to bring the whiteboards into it, whatever I just think it's a real strength of yours and I want to have everyone hear about it.

[00:13:13] Amanda Jelen: Sure. Thank you. Well, in this particular lesson, we were doing, you know, cause and effect. So, I. I feel like it's such a hard topic for third graders to grasp. So, I felt that the whiteboards were especially important. And honestly, we use whiteboards pretty much all day in my classroom. You know, we use them for grammar, we use them for math.

[00:13:33] Amanda Jelen: The only ones that we don't really, I haven't figured out how to use them yet, I guess, is social studies. So, that'll be my next endeavor. But I like to have them use those whiteboards. So I can formatively see as the lesson is going on how am I hitting each kid? Are they learning what I need them to learn?

[00:13:51] Amanda Jelen: Are they showing that they're understanding or are we still going to have to do this lesson again? And I purposely use the whiteboards because I can easily see their answers and it's quick. But also I like. that they can see their neighbors. So if they're not understanding, they can look at their neighbors and be like, Oh yes, that's right.

[00:14:12] Amanda Jelen: You know, so they're learning from each other as well, which I think is super important for some of these kids. It takes a little longer, but if they see their friend doing it the right way, okay, now I got it. And maybe if we keep practicing it right, then eventually it's going to click for them.

[00:14:26] Craig Randall: I'm going to say I don't think it does take longer. I think it's quicker. And here's why. Because if you can only get to so many kids at a time, right? I can't get every kid and know whether they're right or wrong at the time. And some people hear what you just said and say, well, that's copying.

[00:14:40] Craig Randall: And then I'm like, I think that's an antiquated mindset. And I hope I'm not offending anybody out there, but. But, honestly, if I can get corrected immediately before my teacher gets to me, it's not like you don't know which students to target first, and we'll get to that differentiation, because you clearly do.

[00:15:03] Craig Randall: But it doesn't mean there's other kids that aren't getting it, or even that kid you leave and then somebody else. If I, now, as a student, Maybe had the wrong answer, but I see my partner on my left or my right or across from me has the right answer. Maybe I see all three of them have the right answer and I've got something different.

[00:15:21] Craig Randall: And then I can realize that. And whether that's then tapping into my partners to help me understand why or just seeing that and going, Oh, okay, now I get it. Like that's faster. Then if you would they were to wait for you to get them or it's certainly faster than if they were to continue to practice it Wrong individually at their desk on a worksheet and wait you get there.

[00:15:42] Craig Randall: So we've reinforced Wrong habits or now my mistake can get fixed almost immediately

[00:15:50] Amanda Jelen: Sure. I've even witnessed some of my kids in math with whiteboards going as far as, Oh, no, that's wrong. And then they will explain it to them. Like, well, my work here is done because if you guys can teach each other that's amazing. That's what I need you to do. Peer

[00:16:07] Craig Randall: learning principles pyramid on the form right then what's the what's it What's the bottom which has the deepest retention of learning? It's teach, well peer to peer, but yeah, but even teaching others, right? So when that's happening by design, where all the kids are teaching each other, that's when we really know we're going to move the needle the most.

[00:16:25] Craig Randall: So, so you're, that's one part of it, is you're getting a chance to see everybody in the moment, for sure. But then the next part is, like, when the peers are, when the kids are helping each other, that's great, but it's also what you're doing in the moment to help them too. So do you want to talk about that and how you provide feedback for the kids?

[00:16:43] Amanda Jelen: Sure. I work really hard to make sure that I'm, you know, observing everybody's but obviously, like you said, you can't get to everybody.

[00:16:51] Craig Randall: But you are, you know, you're getting to everybody, you're just not getting to everybody immediately. I just want, sorry, I just want to be really clear on that because I see it where people aren't getting to everybody and they're getting some answers and then assuming that everybody has it. And so I want to point out that you are getting there, you can't get to everybody immediately, but you, every single cause and effect question or thing that you were working on that day, you were seeing everywhere at Whiteboard.

[00:17:16] Craig Randall: And making sure it was where, before you moved on.

[00:17:20] Amanda Jelen: Sure. Sure.

[00:17:26] Craig Randall: that's such a key element of it is that you're doing that. So, so when, then when you see it and something's not, the learning isn't yet where you want it to be, how are you guiding, how are you getting them there?

[00:17:41] Amanda Jelen: Sure. So either I'm going to talk to them like one on one. I'm going to say, Oh, let's tell me a little bit more about this, or tell me how you got this answer, or I'm putting it, you know, if I know my lesson and I know this is the last question, okay, I'm putting it in the back of my mind, I got to go back to this kid.

[00:18:01] Amanda Jelen: Maybe when we're working on our worksheet, I got to make sure that I touch base with this person, or I put them right next to me, or in front of me. preferential seating so that I can kind of whisper, talk it through them while the rest are working independently. That way I'm helping them practice, but I'm also hopefully not giving them the answers, but talking them through it.

[00:18:22] Craig Randall: So you're leading into differentiation, which is good because I want to talk about that. Before we do though, there's one other piece that I think I that ties into the text for understanding that it's important that was part of your practices. So again, when I'm on the road, as much as I am seeing as many teachers as I do, what I tend to see, like in terms of the learning goal, learning objective, whatever it is we tend to teach or have the kids.

[00:18:46] Craig Randall: Work, learn, practice, whatever they're doing until, oh, time's up or until the bell rings. And so a really important element is reviewing it at the end of class. And it's like bringing it all together and okay, it's done. And so you're very purposeful. I know this about doing exit tickets as a regular part of your process and as a check for understanding.

[00:19:12] Craig Randall: So we just talk about that piece as well.

[00:19:15] Amanda Jelen: Sure. At the beginning of the year, when I'm, you know, kind of modeling and going through how we're going to do our lessons every single day which I think is important that we do routines. And I think that ties into the behavior management piece as well as Making sure that we are routined and practiced well with our routines.

[00:19:32] Amanda Jelen: We talk about, well, you don't read a chapter book until, if there's 30 chapters, you don't read it until 25 and then close it right away. We're going to read it till the end, and then we're going to, you know, close that book. So I've always told them, you can't just end a lesson and just be done, because all that knowledge is still left up in the air, so we need to bring it back in some form.

[00:19:53] Amanda Jelen: So we do our exit tickets, and I think that those are really important for two reasons. One, I can still see who's, Not still learning or who still needs more practice and to just for them to know, okay, this is what I learned. This was the purpose behind the last 20 minutes of my life.

[00:20:12] Craig Randall: Yeah, and I think it also, like you were talking about that, that backwards design. So you've got lessons pre written, right? I mean, plans pre written. It doesn't mean I'm just going to automatically teach that tomorrow. Because, and that information that you get from that, closure. And it also, just because it's such a regular part of what you're doing, like they know that every day I'm going to get to think about it.

[00:20:37] Craig Randall: Right. And I'm going to know whether I'm getting it or not getting it. And I know if I share that honestly with my teacher, what I do and I don't get with them, that's going to then help me like that's almost a confidence builder in and of itself with them that you're doing that and building that into your process.

[00:20:55] Amanda Jelen: Yep, they know they can be as honest as they need to be and they will write me little notes on their sheets that say, I kind of get this, but I kind of don't, but I'm still gonna put this green, or this smiley face, or whatever I had for the exit ticket that day. Like, I need you to be as honest as possible because I need you to understand this stuff, so.

[00:21:13] Amanda Jelen: That's just part of the relationships that we have built together is they can be brutally honest sometimes. But I welcome that because I need to know these kinds of things.

[00:21:23] Craig Randall: that, that's such a key piece about that too. Is that what you said? Is that It's about the relationship piece as well. Like the relationship allows them to tell me honestly. And one I know honestly that's when I can best help you if there's gaps from what I want to where they're at too. So I love that.

[00:21:38] Craig Randall: I love that. So then tied very closely to that is then actually the differentiation practices that you're doing. And in your class you have, student, a student, certainly a particular of a varying ability. And you also have a student with enormous exuberance, let's say and excitement to tell you about that and managing that.

[00:21:58] Craig Randall: And so that's behavior, but also the way you're doing it is really tied to different, like you talked about who I'm going to target first is tied to differentiating your practice to meet the needs of each kid. And so, Will you just talk about that element of practice for me?

[00:22:12] Amanda Jelen: Sure. Yep. So I do have a student who is developmentally delayed and I feel a lot of times when People are trying to educate her. I don't feel like she gets the best education that she could. And what I mean by that is they see her as limited, and so if I'm teaching cause and effect to the rest of her peers, well, she certainly can't understand that.

[00:22:36] Amanda Jelen: So, I try to take a different approach of, okay, I know that she can't do what her peers can do but I can certainly help her get to where she needs to be in a different way. So, with her, you know, her peers are doing cause and effect on a worksheet with words, and they have to explicitly tell me here was the cause or here was the effect.

[00:22:59] Amanda Jelen: With her, I showed her one picture, and I said, Can you tell me if this is it was a cloud, if it's raining? Which one of these are you going to use? And she pointed to the umbrella. So scaffolding it for her, at her ability, allows her to feel part of our class as well. Which I think also builds a relationship with her peers.

[00:23:22] Amanda Jelen: Because they see, okay, she can do it too. And they take such ownership with helping her with her learning. It's amazing. They are so good with her. Yes.

[00:23:32] Craig Randall: the way you work with her as you're working with the whole class because she sits beside you when you're on the floor doing those whiteboards. I'm assuming that's a regular part of the practice. It is that purposeful placing of where she's at is. When she's got it there, you're letting her know.

[00:23:47] Craig Randall: And even when there's a little adjustment, there's that really quiet, respectful way that you're doing it that in no way whatsoever would make her feel on the spot or self conscious in a negative way. Which all together, it sounds, builds her up as well, right? And she's feeling success as a part of that whole group of students.

[00:24:06] Craig Randall: Because she's still getting cause and effect, right?

[00:24:10] Amanda Jelen: Right. Yep. Another thing that we work on really hard at the beginning of the year is the positive talk. You know, that is so important. There's so much negativity in our world. And so if I can create a space in our classroom where we can all positively talk to each other, even if maybe you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing.

[00:24:28] Amanda Jelen: If I can talk to you in a positive way instead of, you know, calling you out or getting on you right away. I just feel like kids receive that feedback so much better when it's positively. Even if they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing and they're in trouble. If it's, if it comes out in a positive way, I feel like they receive it and change the behavior a lot faster. Particularly one of my students who

[00:24:53] Craig Randall: Well, I mean, yeah, but I mean, there was a student in there where I think you the comment was, let me see if I can pull it up here was I think that was like, you're out of your stories, you're out of story options, like, because he likes to tell you stories. So like, you impose like a limit, but there's a positive way, like, oh, you've reached that limit now.

[00:25:11] Craig Randall: So now it's time to work, you know, and that's a positive framing of it. Right?

[00:25:18] Amanda Jelen: Oh, for sure. And with him, he definitely needs it only to be positive because he'll instantly get down and start some self negative talks. So if I can say, Oh, you've reached your limit with your stories today, but save those in your back pocket for tomorrow. He certainly will save those for me, but he also knows, okay, I'm done.

[00:25:38] Amanda Jelen: My teacher's reached her limit and now it's time for me to actually focus and do my work.

[00:25:42] Craig Randall: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I think it's a perfect segue though into teacher observation because you talk about and the need for positivity to have your students work constructively moving forward. And You've experienced trust based observations now, and we talked about you've experienced 10 years of public school observations.

[00:26:03] Craig Randall: And so, would you mind just talking about, like, maybe your experience with observation prior to and now with trust based observations? I know you haven't had it a lot yet because we were just doing the training but I think the difference, especially related to positivity, and I know specificity too, but I'll just leave it to you to go.

[00:26:26] Amanda Jelen: Sure. Well, for the past 10 years, I have experienced what I would probably call impersonal impersonal observations. It would be almost like a box that my principals would check just, okay, she has to be observed one time this year, two times this year. So here's my box. I've checked it and now we're moving on.

[00:26:48] Amanda Jelen: I never really had my cup filled with my post observation conversations. I didn't really feel like I was growing professionally at all. Oftentimes it would be just emailed to me, and it would say, sign here if you agree. Whereas the conversation that I had after my trust based observation was And so I just kind of went through it and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so awesome.

[00:27:09] Amanda Jelen: And I'm like, that's honestly mind blowing. There was so much information. Some of the things that they had seen and pulled out of my lesson, I hadn't even thought of, I guess. Cause it's just so natural to just do it, but it was the positivity for me. You know, there wasn't anything like, oh, well, you didn't check this box.

[00:27:29] Amanda Jelen: It was, we might not have seen this, but here's what I can say. You did amazing. And I just felt so good about my lesson after leaving that observation. Like, wow, I'm a rock star.

[00:27:43] Craig Randall: And isn't that how you want your kids to feel?

[00:27:46] Amanda Jelen: Yes, a hundred

[00:27:47] Craig Randall: It's the exact same thing. And like, I always felt like there's this giant hypocrisy from the way these traditional models of observation work versus how we want our kids, how we want it to work with our kids. And even, and it was, I mean, that's why you're on the podcast.

[00:28:00] Craig Randall: Because it was a great lesson. And at the same time. Like, did you find, how do you think you felt like in terms of reflection on your practice versus just getting here's your paper, sign it.

[00:28:12] Amanda Jelen: Oh I've already made some of the changes that were suggested.

[00:28:16] Craig Randall: didn't make any suggestions, just to be clear

[00:28:19] Amanda Jelen: you're

[00:28:19] Craig Randall: don't do that, at least certainly at first. Okay.

[00:28:23] Amanda Jelen: Okay. But for example, it was take the amount of time that kids should listen and then the amount of time that they should like turn and talk or reflect. So I've already built that into my current practices.

[00:28:37] Amanda Jelen: So I'll do their five to seven minutes of. My lesson or whatever we're doing, and then I'll pause and have them turn and talk and share what they've learned, or you know, maybe do some type of reflecting on their lesson, just, and I got that just from my post observation with the trust based

[00:28:55] Craig Randall: Just because we were looking at one area of pedagogy, the cognitive load working memory piece, which is building in purpose, reflection and processing activities. And obviously you didn't have anybody like any, we did that observation, like nobody does during the observations because we haven't talked about it, but, and so, and we said not having it there is negative.

[00:29:15] Craig Randall: We don't even expect to say that, see that? But yet, just because we showed it to you and it was all about positive and non-threatening. You just started thinking about it and have already made a change to your practice.

[00:29:28] Amanda Jelen: oops, yeah, I, and the changes that I've seen within my students since we've started to do that is, It's amazing, like, they are retaining and,

[00:29:37] Craig Randall: isn't it crazy?

[00:29:38] Amanda Jelen: it is, and they're taking ownership of it. So, especially, we did the I before E except after C, and so they were saying that back and forth, and now they're still saying it to each other, and I'm like, this is such great

[00:29:50] Craig Randall: You know, secondary teachers, sometimes, especially for advanced placement or IB teachers, they feel the need, and I understand it, to get their content in because there's a big test at the end of the year, at the end of two years. And sometimes they can mistakenly think, well, I don't have time to stop and build this reflection process of the activities in because I have to get my.

[00:30:12] Craig Randall: My content and I think what you're already experiencing and it works the same no matter what the age is actually by doing that They're retaining it way better than they would so it's actually probably saving reteaching time

[00:30:25] Amanda Jelen: Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, yeah. I can't say for certain, but I think that they still remember the I before E accept after C rule

[00:30:34] Craig Randall: and that's just one example, but it's just, it's the point is we stop at cognitive load capacity, building on reflection processing, but even more than that, even more than specifics of that one area of the form is because of the way that the trust based observation process works. You just start thinking in it because you're not threatened about what to get better at.

[00:30:54] Craig Randall: Yeah.

[00:30:54] Amanda Jelen: right. I just felt safe to make changes where I wanted to or felt like I needed to in my lesson so that I could enhance them.

[00:31:04] Craig Randall: Yeah, that's what we want. So Amanda, this has been fantastic. I think there's teachers out there that might want to learn from you and might want to have the opportunity to reach out to you personally. So would you mind sharing your work email in case anybody has any questions?

[00:31:20] Amanda Jelen: My work email is a Jelen, J E L E N at holy redeemer, R E D E M E R. com.

[00:31:35] Craig Randall: it. Amanda, thanks so much. It was great for me to get to spend two weeks out in the most rural diocese in the country. And and to get to watch you and all the other great teachers that I saw during that time. So thanks so much for your time.

[00:31:50] Amanda Jelen: coming to our schools, especially in this remote part of the country.

[00:31:55] Craig Randall: Oh,

[00:31:55] Amanda Jelen: We are going to be such better teachers because of what you are doing for our diocese. So thank you for that.

[00:32:02] Craig Randall: that's nice of you to say. Thanks, Amanda. Bye bye.

[00:32:07] Outro: Thank you for listening to 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance. If the show resonated with you, you can help other teachers by liking, sharing, and subscribing. More importantly, if you don't like the way you're being evaluated, don't like being nitpicked and scored, then check out Trust Based Observations at TrustBased.com, where we know the path to growth is through safe spaces for risk taking. Tell your principal about it, and change your school's observations to a model of trust and support, and join the thousands of teachers who now experience the joy of observations the way they're meant to be done.