20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance (On the Road with Trust-Based Observations)

Ted (Intro Outro Man): Welcome to 20 minutes of teaching brilliance on the road with Trust Based Observations.

Every week while training school leaders, Craig Randall, the developer of Trust Based Observations, witnesses brilliant teaching during their 20 minute observations.

Wanting to share that teaching brilliance with others, we talk shop with those teachers, learning what they do that is so impactful.

We hope you enjoy.

Craig: Hi, and welcome to another edition of 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance on the Road with trust-based observations.

Today we are veering from our normal format where we interview a teacher that we see while we're out training schools, and we're actually gonna interview a principal.

Where we've just finished our part two training with sometime in the last three, four weeks, and we thought it might be interesting for listeners for whether it's principals or teachers, to get a perspective on maybe trust-based observations from the leadership angle in terms of.

What it's like implementing it, what it's like when we do the part two, which is really where we start to ask permission and to offer suggestions and really provide that supported suggestion piece.

So with that recently I was in Yakima, Washington, my home state, and I was at Robertson Elementary School.

Doing what we call part two TBO training.

And so Carrie Davis is the principal there, this is her third year there.

She has along the way been a teacher and instructional coach.

They use a different terminology.

If FI can't, you'll have to remind me what that is.

Carrie.

And then and assistant principal as well.

And Carrie, welcome to the show.

And is there anything else you wanna add about your background that I didn't cover in that pretty basic introduction?

Carrie: No, I think you got it all.

Craig, if is instructional facilitator, it's our fancy word for instructional coach.

Craig: yes.

It throws me every single time.

I should know

Carrie: It throws everybody.

Craig: Yeah, I know.

Why don't you just change it, damnit?

Not that you have any control over that.

Carrie: I'll share

Craig: So listen, let, yeah, probably not, probably better if you don't.

Listen, we, your Human resources director, Kim Newell, is the one that really first came across and as a former principal, and I think you were her assistant principal for her.

And so she's the one that really first came across trust-based observations for the district.

So maybe do you wanna just talk about how it came to be where we got training and then we'll jump into what that experience has been like for you.

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely.

So I've known Kim for years and I was fortunate enough to be your assistant principal for a year, and then she moved into hr and then I actually stepped into the principal role in the same building and she came to me with.

This trust-based observation book my first year in the principal job and showed it to me and I'm like, that looks so great.

And she really wanted to do a book study and all of that.

And I very nicely said, not so nicely.

Kim and I have been friends for a long time and I was like, I can't do this.

I can't handle this.

I'm not gonna throw the book at your face, but I am gonna put it on the shelf until at least next year.

And I'm like, my first year, you gotta give it to me,

Craig: my first year.

Carrie: Figure out what I'm doing before looking at it.

But my heart is very much in instruction.

And when she wanted to come back to it and she had signed up for this training with you last year, in my second year, I was like, I'm ready now.

Let's like, jump in.

Let's take a look at this and let's see what it has to offer.

So if it can help, teachers improve their practice and helps kids learn, like I'm all about let's try it.

Craig: And so before we do that, let's and let's talk about really what the district has been doing prior to our coming to Robertson

Carrie: Yeah,

Craig: For their teacher observation.

Carrie: Yeah, so Washington State has some kind of specific laws in around teacher observations, and we have three different models that we can use.

So we have our Danielson framework that we use for our teacher observations.

And you have comprehensive or.

Are focused.

So they have a system for that.

But it's formal observations based off of rubrics.

And then every building in Yakima kind of has their own system for doing like informal walkthroughs.

There's no real.

Format for those informal walkthroughs.

There's a very specific format for formal observations.

But every building's kind of on their own to create their own informal walkthroughs in their own building.

So that can vary very much from building to building.

Craig: Sure.

So you guys had the formal, which is really, that's the pre-observation conference, the observation, the post-observation conference, write it up and submit it, because that's factors into retention really.

Decisions in some ways.

Maybe some of it's a bit of a hoop jump, but it's still it's a requirement, a district requirement.

And the state has laws around that as well.

In, in terms of that and your first and your second year, like how did that go for you?

Carrie: So I found something really interesting in my building.

I was the assistant principal at Robertson, but before that I was the if the instructional facilitator or instructional coach for about eight years.

And so I did that for eight years.

Then I moved into assistant principal and then that principal role.

So I've had all those jobs at Robertson and I was finding in my first couple years of, my principal role doing observations, like the formal observations with teachers.

I was finding that any staff members that had been there when I was an instructional coach versus the ones that I hired as assistant principal, like we had very different relationships.

And like the formal observations felt much more formal with my staff that I hired in my admin role, versus I had much more of a reflective and collaborative kind of sense of conversations with the staff members that had been that I had worked with in, in the instructional coaching role.

And so there seemed to be a different kind of relationship and it actually started to.

Frustrate me that I didn't quite have that same sense of that collegial coaching and partnership role with this newer staff, which makes sense, right?

Like I hired them in my admin role and so we have a very different, more oh, you're my boss, a role.

But I was very much seen a discrepancy in, in, in that the past trusting relationships that I had with, staff before I became, the principal.

And so that was something that was, I was really noticing and it wasn't a bad thing.

It wasn't like we didn't get along or anything.

It just didn't have that same kind of collaborative sense that I had with some staff.

And so I was really noticing a difference.

In how those conversations went and noticing I could have, asked questions in post conferences with my veteran staff that had been with me as an instructional coach.

And we could have those questions about oh, let's talk about your, what would you like to do?

Or they'd tell me a little bit more of their, they'd be a little bit more vulnerable and they would say, oh, I tried this Carrie, and it really wasn't going well, but I decided to give it a shot anyway.

Like they, they knew and trusted that.

I was always looking for their growth and not just evaluating them versus staff that I hired who hadn't had me in that role.

Were much more likely to take that safer route and I'm not gonna try, I am not gonna do anything veer off the normal.

I'm gonna go with I what I know works 'cause you're coming to evaluate me.

So it just, it felt really different and I wasn't feeling like I was getting to those reflective conversations the way that I wanted with my newest staff.

Craig: So jumping in, what I'm hearing you say is because with.

All your teachers that had been there before, you'd worked in this instructional facilitator role, which is really a collaborative, collegial, positive, working together role where you, we were, sorry, I
have to use this word, but you had built trust and a trusting relationship over time with them, and it wasn't hierarchical and there weren't ratings and numbers or how d distinguished and proficient whereas.

So by the time you, when you moved into this other role, you already had that trusting relationship built, and then whenever you had new teachers in, you'd never worked in that.

Peer, collaborative, supportive role, and so instantly it's just about the numbers and so therefore, the trusting relationship wasn't there.

And because the trusting relationship wasn't there, what are your teachers doing?

They're playing it safe and not taking risks, which is exactly what the research says.

As soon as you start to put numbers on something, the relational trust is diminished and they're less likely.

To try new things, innovate and experiment, and you just happen to be lucky.

You really, in some ways that your instructional facilitator for a good portion of your staff, you develop that relationship first.

Am I in the ballpark?

Carrie: Yeah, a hundred percent.

That was a great summary and never tell Kim this, but it was the aha moment I had when Kim had signed us up for this training and I'm like, okay, I gotta read this book now.

And reading through that research in your book was where I had the aha moment of oh, this is why these relationships feel so different.

I should have read this book last year.

Don't Tell Kim.

But that's very much that helped me that light, light bulb moment for me of oh, it is about the trust.

Like I, I had trust with those people because I had that coaching relationship.

So that relationship is really different.

Okay.

I'm not failing at my job.

I'm not making people uncomfortable.

Like it's just that I am your boss and that is more formal.

But then it becomes this okay, great.

Craig: works against my best efforts.

Carrie: Yeah, and it really highlighted that how that formal like evaluation rating scales and having this, okay, I have to be proficient 'cause I wanna keep my job like that doesn't establish trust.

And I feel very fortunate that I had that coaching experience.

So I could see that relationship, but I don't think without going through this training and realizing and reading that research, I don't think I would've picked up on what was missing.

That missing element.

Craig: isn't it the same?

Carrie: Like, why is this?

Craig: jump forward then to, actually, let's talk about the, what let's jump forward to the training and what, why don't you talk about.

About that and even what it was like that week, what it was like for the teachers that week, what it was like following that up with the teachers.

Did it make a difference?

Not make a difference in the relationship, just tell us about that experience.

Carrie: That week was great.

It was a very intense week but it was actually really well worth it when the following weeks when we were continuing with that and then into the next year.

'cause we had our training in like late April, I wanna say.

And so it really helped, like the more, we did a ton of 'em in that week, which was great.

It was really intense, but it was great.

So having that practice so that when we went and did it on our own, it was great to go.

And it was.

Staff feedback on it was actually really positive.

So after that week, I think we saw, I don't know, maybe six or seven of the teachers in my building.

And we had paired with another building and I had a share out of the staff meeting of tell us how it went.

And overwhelmingly, all of those teachers gave really positive feedback.

They said, we really appreciated hearing specifically about our practice, like what we're doing well having the trust-based form to be able to really specifically look at oh I do all those things.

And they're good.

And they have a name like Yeah, a hundred percent.

And instantly they said and that's what has been happening this year too, of I like this.

Like I get really.

Very specific feedback about what I am doing.

And it isn't just trying to fit what I do in a box on a rubric.

It's you have this strategy that you're using and it was really effective with kids here.

And this is why, and this is a really a positive and important thing you do.

And this is a huge strength of yours.

Or look how many questions you asked and look how much great feedback you gave kids.

And there it's so specific that you can't leave it not feeling great about what you're doing in some area.

Craig: It, it works from strengths and.

The other systems though well intended, as soon as you start to put numbers on, it becomes deficit thinking and it puts people on the defensive.

But when you pull out strengths that teachers aren't even sometimes aware that they have, and especially when you start to see it over and over again and you start to realize those really are strengths and because the form is so specific.

It allows it to be like, it's not just good job.

Hey, that was a great job with those kiddos.

It's, it was a great job on the formative assessment when you were providing descriptive progress feedback.

That was a combination of giving the answer, providing more instructions and using questions to have the kids get their own answers.

And you're even citing the questions they used, are they instructional?

It just means so much more to the teachers.

Carrie: Yeah.

And they're so much more likely to like, engage.

And it's so funny 'cause it's supposed to be 20 minutes for like the follow-up conversation the next day.

And oftentimes like I'm rushing at the end of it because those first two questions, they take so much time like saying like what they were doing or what they were using.

Like the more that we do this and then even, even the looking at, like, when we get to each area, like they're like, I'll tell them something and they're like, oh, it's like this, or it's like this, or, oh, and I tried this, and I try, and then they start talking more and more.

And then it's great because then they're reflecting on that and they're taking that back and they're owning it and they're transforming their practice a lot on their own.

Craig: And just so for the listeners that aren't aware, but the questions are the first, we always start by asking questions, not by telling.

And the first question is, what were you doing pedagogically speaking to help the students learn?

And if you had the chance to do it over again, what, if anything, might you have done differently?

And so what I'm hearing you say is.

As they get used to those questions and they become more familiar with the nine areas of pedagogy on the form, and they're able to identify their own practice more, their answers become more thorough.

Am I hearing that right?

Carrie: Yeah.

Craig: Okay.

And then the, then, so the other thing is then you're saying what I, the other thing that I think I'm hearing you say is that as they become more familiar with the form, and it's just nine core areas of pedagogy,
learning targets, relationships, behavior management, cooperative learning, working memory, questioning, or higher order thinking skills, formative assessment, descriptive progress, feedback and differentiation.

Just core stuff.

But as they become more familiar with it and you start to point out what they're doing, they start talking back to you, and it really becomes deeper reflective practice and collegial dialogue at the same time that, if I'm hearing you gets their wheels spinning on what they can even do more.

Carrie: Oh, a hundred percent.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

'Cause they'll start saying oh, that's what that looks like.

And then they're like, oh.

Or sometimes they'll see if I've put something in there about their descriptive progress feedback.

Or the way that they gave their formative assessments.

And then when I'm explaining different aspects of it, they're like, oh.

So if it was.

Oh, you could do peer to peer.

Oh, that was what that looked like.

Like they start to connect some things and they're like, oh, I could easily shift that or change that and then I could hit this and this.

And they're not looking to, it's not, they're not looking at it as a rubric, but they're looking at it as that feedback of oh, I could go even deeper here.

I could try a little bit more here.

And then it just very much becomes this, oh, I could just give that a try.

That's, oh, that's easy.

Oh, I'll just ship this.

So then it does become that conversation of what am I doing, but what more could I be doing?

Or how could I tweak this or change this or add to this and bump it up?

Yeah.

Craig: And you're saying that before we even talk about the part two part where we're asking permission to offer suggestion, this is teachers just starting to reflect on their own, on what they can get better at.

And one of the things that we always tell them, and I know you know this, is that we always say, look, if something's not filled in on the form, it's not a negative.

We just didn't happen to see it or maybe didn't fit for that lesson.

But despite that, their wheels start spinning and because we're not putting ratings or rubrics and we're sharing strengths, their walls that of defensiveness are down, that vulnerability is lowered.

So they feel more comfortable really reflecting on how to get better.

Carrie: Or they'll ask questions, they'll say oh, I see, not that, and I'll tell them that, as we go throughout it, like seeing something that's not marked isn't, a negative.

It just means I didn't see it for that.

Or they'll say actually I did it right before you came in, or I did it right after.

Or, what would this look like?

So it just gets that exactly like the walls are down and they're just like, oh, okay.

And they're just thinking and considering and it's teaching is a, can be a lonely, isolating job.

Like even when you have a grade level team, it's.

Craig: Yeah.

Carrie: The majority of your day, like you're in a classroom by yourself and you don't get that feedback.

You're going through your day and you're just you and the kids and you don't know.

I'm like, I think this is okay.

It seems like they're learning, but to have somebody else come in and specifically tell you that what you're doing is effective, and what you're doing is a great thing and here's why.

Or here's this evidence that it's a great practice.

Then you're like, oh, it is a good thing.

Oh, and I could try this too, because then you're automatically like I'm getting some feedback.

And it feels good and it's positive and it feeds.

Craig: positive.

Carrie: And it feeds forward.

And it's oh, I haven't gotten this level of kind of specificity and my feedback before from evaluator, but let me see what else I can do with it.

And, everybody wants to do a great job at what they're doing.

And this just allows them that opportunity to hear the great stuff.

And then they start thinking oh, what else could I do?

And just feeds that reflective practice, which is a huge piece for teaching.

Yeah.

Craig: And I think what really is a big key to that and I know you know that is that form only has nine areas of pedagogy on it.

But the form is so specific, it really allows us as observers to key in on really detailed observations of evidence of what we're seeing.

And that I think really fosters that conversation.

'cause it's building them up.

Carrie: Yeah.

Hundred percent yes.

Craig: So let's jump forward then to part two training.

So it's amazing that people are thinking about what to get better at on their own.

Even that, I feel is a big jump over what we traditionally see that causes people to be defensive, but sometimes we have blind spots as teachers, as people or whoever.

And leaving it sometimes to maybe just that traditional coaching model where it's just to what they wanna work on.

We might be, they might be missing something that we noticed could really benefit them.

And the example that I always give, and I give this example is that every week on the road when I'm training a school, one of you will say something that makes.

Trust-based observations better for everybody.

And that, that happened both times.

We were in Yakima and i'm the guy that developed it and I have so many blind spots every single week.

Somebody makes it better.

So of course, as teachers, we have the same con blind spots in terms of what we're gonna do.

And so what we do in part two.

Our lens is always, and we wait until at least the fourth visit to offer a suggestion.

Our lens is always, which one of those nine areas for whichever particular teacher we're looking at, if I help that teacher grow, would make the biggest difference in improve teaching and learning for that particular teacher.

One dude.

Now maybe outline what part two looks like from your perspective as a principal.

Part two training, and then how it manifests with the teachers that we were able to practice with that week.

Carrie: So for us, when looking at part two of, having a few of those observations under our belt and then looking at that ability to ask for permission, Craig had asked what areas are you seeing that land of opportunity?

And so for us it was in that.

Processing.

And the working memory and processing.

And then also in the collaborative learning, especially collaborative learning, we've really trained a lot on Kagan this year.

And we have a really high population of second language learners.

And we're really looking to what's gonna help support them in that cooperative learning for our ELs.

It's good for all kids, but it's great for ELs too.

And that's one that I've been seeing in my.

The trust-based observations is a lot of like missed opportunities, like a turn and talk, but not quite the structures.

And so we were really looking specifically for those when we saw teachers for this round two.

And then looking at that, when we.

Went through the trust base with them and doing the debrief and then, getting to the end and saying, Hey, I just, have this suggestion, would you be interested?

And every single person that we did that with was like, yeah, I wanna know.

And for the majority of them, I think Craig, that we had seen were around the cooperative learning and the Kagan structures and they all just took it and ran with it.

And it was so much fun to see.

When they were like, oh, just this one little tweak and make it a little bit more structured to make sure that you've got all of those, pies, principles, that everyone is engaged, that everybody is doing all the work that you want them to be doing.

Were just very small things, but they were super eager to just be like, oh, I can take something I'm doing and bump it up a little bit.

And they all just ran with it.

One of the teachers, I went back and watched it the next day and she had created this graphic organizer with the kids roles and she did this modeling and this fishbowl to show her kids how to do it.

It was the

Craig: How to.

Carrie: Yeah, the rally structure or the rally coaching, and I was like, that wasn't even, that was like beyond what I had even anticipated.

And just took it and ran with it and the kids were able to do it and then she could see the power of using that structure with the kids and how much deeper they could take the content.

And I think teachers just, they want, they're eager for it.

They're hungry for knowing what they're doing well and then having those really specific things that are gonna take their practice to the next level.

And it really just feeds the system of.

Focusing on strengths, adding that little next step that's gonna push you to the next level and helping everybody improve and get better and want to, and trust that, their principal
is coming in and sees them and sees their strengths, honors that work, and then is gonna give them that little thing that takes 'em to the next level to make it even better.

And they see the benefit with their students.

And then it just cycles it further and we all just get better.

Craig: And I think I wanna just add some more detail to what you said.

And so the first thing you said is we ask permission to offer the suggestion.

'cause I can tell you what to get better at.

That little subtle difference between asking and telling makes a big difference.

And they're always gonna say yes, but it makes a big difference.

But even then when we talk about it, we're not just saying, Hey, try this.

Like we're walking them through it ourselves.

What I would say is the exact same way we'd want a teacher to give feedback to a student.

So when you were working with, who was that with the rally coach.

Who was that?

I'm blanking on her name.

Sonya.

When you were working with Sonya with the rally coach.

You weren't just like saying, Hey, here, I want you to try this.

We walked through all the steps along the way that go into how to successfully do Rally Coach.

So you were just like a teacher would, right?

Not just, Hey, here it is.

But even then you offered like.

Different ways that we could help support again, as opposed to just telling.

So you said I could model it for you.

We could co-teach it or you could teach and I could watch.

So again, we're giving teachers choices and autonomy, but we're allowing them whatever level of support because a newer teacher, and maybe Sonya, who's a more veteran teacher, might want different things.

A newer teacher might say, gosh, would you do it for me first?

So I can see someone in the middle might say, could we co. Do it.

And someone like Sonia might say, no, I want to do it myself.

But again, giving those choices I think really empowers the teachers and makes them feel really supported, and that makes them to me much more willing to engage in taking that risk as well.

Thoughts on that?

Carrie: Yeah, absolutely.

And I think too that asking for permission piece was really huge is, we've done enough of these that they have that trust built.

But then asking Hey, can I explain, can I give you a suggestion?

Then going through and explaining it, and it was actually fun.

Out of all the teachers that we did like us saying, walking through here's this strategy and here's how you do it, and do you want us to.

I can come model it or we could co-teach it or we can, you can do it your own yourself.

And it was just super fun to see the teachers that were like, you model it or co-teach it.

And we think we had all three of them.

And then one who really wanted to do it themself, and so that was really fun too, because then it shows oh, you've gotta do this.

One of the teachers wanted to co-teach it with me, and I'm like, okay, this is so great.

I don't know how this is gonna go, but it's gonna be great.

'cause then it, it also shows that vulnerability from my perspective of I'm not just telling you what to do and I'm not just handing you something I am, I'm explaining it.

I'm willing to come in and do it with you or model it for you.

And that's a whole different dynamic than just, here I am, I'm just gonna tell you this.

It's I'm gonna actually come and do it with you and make myself vulnerable.

And you know what?

It might flop 'cause I'm in the classroom in a minute.

And it didn't flop.

It was, it went okay.

But it just shows

Craig: Although when I did it with the kindergartner, when I had to do it, when she asked me to co do it with the kindergartners, I had done kindergarters like 14, 15 years ago, and I'm not sure it was a flop, but it was definitively not a flying roaring success like Sonia's was.

But it's okay because we're modeling ourselves.

And even in the modeling, Kendall still saw things that she knew that she could do better than I did because she knew how to work with kindergartners better than I did.

So it still works by that.

But if we're modeling our own vulnerability, it's much easier for them to do the same thing as well.

Carrie: Yeah, and I appreciated that too, coming from that

Craig: So if you,

Carrie: of that.

I'll do this with you or I'll do it for you.

So you can see it like I'm willing to step in that role and do that, which is not typical from an administrator standpoint.

So to, just in the typical course of how you do your formal observations, you don't do that.

That's not how they teach you to do it.

But it makes sense to do that if you want people to improve you gotta make that move to be more vulnerable.

Craig: Practice what you preach.

Model, right?

All that good stuff.

Why don't we finish off by maybe just saying, so if you think about the con, so after we do.

After we meet with them and then we get to go watch them or co-teach with them.

The last thing that we do is we have the last conversation where we ask them.

What went well with the new strategy?

What would they like to keep working on with the new strategy?

And what I think is the most important question, how can we support you to make sure you built this fully into your practice by the next time we come and watch you?

But we also just let them reflect in general, on what they thought about the whole process.

Do you wanna just maybe share out with the listeners, like what the teachers in the end had to say about this experience, especially the asking permission to offer suggestion and the support.

Carrie: Yeah.

No, all of them were like very receptive to the suggestions and they were all really eager to either hear or learn or something new.

They all had really positive feedback about it.

It was like a lot of it was just like, oh yeah, I didn't think about that, or.

Oh yeah.

Like doing this little tweak or adding this little extra, like really made it better.

There wasn't a single one of them who was like yeah, it it, I'm not gonna do it again.

It was like, oh, that really made a huge difference.

And the one where I co-taught with Yesenia she has.

She's been working on some collaborative stuff but didn't quite have all of the structures for Kagan in there and she was able to see that difference and really reflect on how it
was different from what she was doing and just thinking, oh, making sure that, 'cause we'd done time pair share with her and making sure each partner had a turn and it was timed.

She was like that.

Make sure that every kid has to be responsible to do it.

She was like, I can add that.

Make sure that I'm really focusing on that and adding that piece to what I was doing.

And so she was able to reflect and say, oh, moving forward, I need to make sure that I have these structures in place and making sure that everybody's participating.

Sonia, went and just made it her own

Craig: The bar.

Carrie: Yeah, raising the bar and Sonia was like, okay, I'm gonna try this.

And her feedback on the rally coach was she had modeled it with a student and then she had two students model it and do a fishbowl for the class.

And then the kids went and they did it themselves.

And when I, we were sitting and we were reflecting about it, and this was with.

After you had left Craig, she was like, I was so impressed that they could do it.

And I was like I watched you model it and do a fishbowl.

There was no way they weren't gonna get it.

And I sat next to a couple of kiddos who I knew maybe you struggled a little bit more with the content.

It was math.

And they did a absolutely phenomenal job with it.

And.

Really felt empowered and some of these kids were do, and the teacher then Sonya was like, it was incredible.

And she's I'm gonna do this more.

I'm like, great.

Yes, please.

And I know that Xavier had done what did we do?

Rally Robin with Xavier, I think.

And he went back and shared it with his whole team.

And he is we all have to do this.

Craig: Yeah, like collective teacher efficacy in action at that point.

Carrie: Exactly.

So they all took it and ran with it or saw how they could make it better or do it more or share with other people.

And that's the power of it is it just, it makes you better and you keep growing your practice and that of the practice of people around you.

If it's great and good and working for you, you're gonna share it with everybody else.

Craig: For sure.

So let's maybe make this the last thing as opposed to what I said is gonna be the last thing.

And so if there's people out there, teachers that are thinking, wow I or there's a principal wondering about TBO or whatever, do you wanna share whatever your thoughts are on, on, on TBO in general and any recommendations that you have.

Carrie: Yeah, I think it's TBO is just really powerful and very valuable.

I think in our state with, being tied to having that formal observation cycle with a very specific model and rubric, it makes it a little bit tougher to get engaged in that.

And so we've made it just part of our walkthrough practice of using TBOs.

It's how we saw it fitting.

But I, from a principal perspective seeing the way that my relationships with the staff I've hired as a. A principal opposed to the ones I worked with as an instructional coach.

Using the trust-based observation helps build that trust and create the vulnerability for people to be their authentic selves.

Try something, fail it and know that I'm gonna come in and just say, great job.

Trying something new and it's gonna be okay.

And I'm gonna praise you for that and we're gonna keep going and trust that I'm there.

And I'll tell people that in informal conversations anyway.

And.

They don't believe it until I do like this, until they know that I'm gonna come in and say, look at all the strengths that you have.

And it changes.

The relationships that you can have with your teachers.

They're more trusting.

They know that you are there for their growth.

They know that it's not tied to any kind of rubric.

Their job's not on the line.

It is, this is about your practice and these are the things that you're doing really well.

And it's Transformative because teachers are like, you're a principal who sees me and you see the work that I do, and you honor my work.

You give it a name and you tell me where my strengths are.

And it's not going on a rubric.

It's, it changes that dynamic and it allows to have those, what I would call growth conversations of tell me what you're doing really well.

And if I ask that in a post-conference for a formal observation, they're gonna be like, everything was great.

But when I do trust space, they're so specific and it's so different because then it really is focused on very specific ways that you're doing great or areas that you wanna grow in.

And you're talking about the strategies that you're using.

And just honors it.

I think it really elevates the teaching pro profession and really honors the work that they're doing at a very specific level.

But it allows you to have those reflective conversations that feed growth.

Outside of those formal conversations that are like, okay, how did I do on the rubric?

Like they're not worrying about that.

They're just thinking about the teaching.

And are the kids learning?

If they're learning, like how are they learning?

What strategies are you using that are effective to help them to grow?

In what areas can we help make it even better?

It's not a deficit of here's all the things you're not doing right.

Here's what you're doing well, and can I give you a suggestion that just makes it even better?

And when you change that conversation and you focus on what they're already doing well as opposed to oh, you didn't get this checked or you didn't get, and you gotta make sure you do that 'cause it's on the rubric.

It completely changes how they feel about their practice and their willingness to engage in, in growth conversations and take those risks.

And that's what I'm seeing And that's a way better model for helping teachers grow.

And it's much more comfortable for teachers.

It's not it's not punitive, it's not as frightening.

It's oh, my, my principal sees what I'm doing well and she's for me and for my growth and wants what's best for me and for students.

And it just completely changes, the dynamic between, for an evaluation standpoint from for principal and teacher relationship.

Craig: Thanks, Carrie.

I appreciate that.

Look, there might be some teachers or principals out there that, that might wanna reach out to you and talk to you personally or get your advice or wonder if you're just saying this 'cause you're on the podcast or whatever.

Would you be okay sharing out your professional contact information in case anybody wants to reach out?

Carrie: Yeah, sure.

And just so you know, and everyone knows I wouldn't be doing this podcast if I didn't really believe in it.

I would've told you to take a hike, Craig.

But I didn't do that.

So my email is,

Craig: think I know you well enough to know that.

Carrie: yeah my email is Davis, D-A-V-I-S.

Care, C-A-R-R-I-E at ysd seven org

Craig: Thanks, Carrie.

I appreciate it.

I'm glad we got to talk again today and catch up.

Hopefully I'll be out there in the fall again working with a couple other schools and we'll get to see each other again.

I hope you have a great end of the year.

Carrie: Thank you very much and thanks.

Craig: All right.

Take care.

Okay, bye-bye.

Ted (Intro Outro Man): Thank you for listening to 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance.

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More importantly, if you don't like the way you're being evaluated, don't like being nitpicked and scored, then check out Trust Based Observations at TrustBased.

com, where we know the path to growth is through safe spaces for risk taking.

Tell your principal about it, and change your school's observations to a model of trust and support, and join the thousands of teachers who now experience the joy of observations the way they're meant to be done.